IT skills shortage
- Thread starter regulus
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Yes but how do you tell your potential employer that?Gilly said:
And what sort of things do you mean?
I'm not on my uni course to get experience, which is a good thing because i'm not learning much and nothing useful. I'm on the course to get a piece of paper which apparently i need before employers will even show an interest. If theres another way to avoid spending 3 years getting the paperwork and a further 2 getting the experience i'm all ears.
weescott said:That is a general Q if ever I seen one.
A: between min wage and 100k plus
I was actually directing my question to the IT workers on this forum. Everyone seems to be moaning. I take it that it's not such a hot tickets anymore?
Soldato
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First year newb herechesterstu said:
I went to college for 3 years and left in 1995, since then I've been working in other fields other than I.T. but kept upto speed, then in 1998 I started with an I.T company as a support developer , since then the job got more interesting and now i'm on just shy of £30k + company car,... I dont think this is too bad, but it seems that there is a genuine lack of grass root I.T. experience in our company, people say that they have xx MCSE's but when it comes to an actual working environment they're useless... thats my 2 cents... 
I was lucky enough to have spent 40 mins yesterday having a 1 to 1 with one of the head honchos of the largest I.T. recruiter in the country, the agency he works for (Computer People http://www.computerpeople.co.uk/content_static/about_us_candidates.asp?session_id={5D5D979A-80DF-43D4-8097-FE610B7FDCB9}&PageStyle=candidate) supplies candidates for a large amount of the top blue-chip companies in the UK... they don't need to advertise like most other agencies because the companies come straight to them and they have largely exclusive access to a lot of the best jobs in the industry.
He told me that at the moment they can't get enough .NET developers to fit demand, and that any decent .NET dev could walk in his office and walk away with a 30k job. It was similar with software testers... there just aren't nearly enough good ones to go around and they too could walk straight in and get a job, with excellent pay and scope for more.
The guy looked at my CV and the experience i've gained over the last 18 months and told me he could get me a 20-22k job within a very short space of time with a good company doing internal support, what I did then was up to me as if I wanted to progress i'd have to start really educating myself and taking any opportunity that comes my way... which I am fully prepared to do and told him as much in detail. He said if you work hard, in 2 years it is perfectly reasonable to expect to be on 30k, and that is where I fully intend to be in that time... or as close as humanly possible.
Support is one of the worst areas to be in as that's the area that's generally the most saturated and that's the one that in general has a LOT of competiton simply because for many it's their first rung on the I.T. ladder... me included. It's also the area that I seem to see people judging the I.T. market as a whole by simply because it's so popular and at the lower levels it really is semi-skilled monkey work.
I think the I.T. industry as a whole has a lot of scope for good earning and career potential... but you need to know what skills are in demand and be prepared to train to those levels so you can get the job and get the money. My utlimate aim is to be a systems analyst or equivalent... and I have a long road ahead of me... but i'm aware of the effort i'm going to have to put in, and at 26 i'm young and plucky enough to do it. He's putting me forward for some jobs that would be a complete gift towards achieving this aim and I intend to go hell for leather and make the most of any opportunity I get.
I just popped into their (well hidden but very large) office intending to get a business card and leave as I was told that they "strictly don't do drop-in visits". However for some reason unknown the top recruitment guy there listened to my enquiry and actually took the time to look at my CV, listen to what i've done so far and what my aims were (actually he seriously grilled me, i've had job interviews that were far less intimidating), and gave me some fantastic advice. He then took my CV and contact details and tell me that he would do his best to get me the best internal support job at a large, wealthy company he could for my experience, and the rest was up to me. I can only presume he took kindly to the fact i'd made the effort to locate their offices and be a bit bold in walking in looking for information, and he grilled me in that mini-interview enough to know I was serious and thus I think that's why he's going to make an effort to get me a better job.
Anyway I apologise because I realise i'm rambling bigtime here but my brief time with that guy was invaluable... not only because I suddenly have someone with a huge amount of resources available that is going to get me a shot at some great opportunites, but because it made me realise from what he was saying how vibrant the I.T. market still is, and the prospects for earning some serious money are still there... in fact i'd say now is one of the best time to get into it and get established, it's an exciting time for technology!
To support the OP there's definately a lot of opportunities out there at the moment, you just have to take the bull by the horns and go for it.
He told me that at the moment they can't get enough .NET developers to fit demand, and that any decent .NET dev could walk in his office and walk away with a 30k job. It was similar with software testers... there just aren't nearly enough good ones to go around and they too could walk straight in and get a job, with excellent pay and scope for more.
The guy looked at my CV and the experience i've gained over the last 18 months and told me he could get me a 20-22k job within a very short space of time with a good company doing internal support, what I did then was up to me as if I wanted to progress i'd have to start really educating myself and taking any opportunity that comes my way... which I am fully prepared to do and told him as much in detail. He said if you work hard, in 2 years it is perfectly reasonable to expect to be on 30k, and that is where I fully intend to be in that time... or as close as humanly possible.
Support is one of the worst areas to be in as that's the area that's generally the most saturated and that's the one that in general has a LOT of competiton simply because for many it's their first rung on the I.T. ladder... me included. It's also the area that I seem to see people judging the I.T. market as a whole by simply because it's so popular and at the lower levels it really is semi-skilled monkey work.
I think the I.T. industry as a whole has a lot of scope for good earning and career potential... but you need to know what skills are in demand and be prepared to train to those levels so you can get the job and get the money. My utlimate aim is to be a systems analyst or equivalent... and I have a long road ahead of me... but i'm aware of the effort i'm going to have to put in, and at 26 i'm young and plucky enough to do it. He's putting me forward for some jobs that would be a complete gift towards achieving this aim and I intend to go hell for leather and make the most of any opportunity I get.
I just popped into their (well hidden but very large) office intending to get a business card and leave as I was told that they "strictly don't do drop-in visits". However for some reason unknown the top recruitment guy there listened to my enquiry and actually took the time to look at my CV, listen to what i've done so far and what my aims were (actually he seriously grilled me, i've had job interviews that were far less intimidating), and gave me some fantastic advice. He then took my CV and contact details and tell me that he would do his best to get me the best internal support job at a large, wealthy company he could for my experience, and the rest was up to me. I can only presume he took kindly to the fact i'd made the effort to locate their offices and be a bit bold in walking in looking for information, and he grilled me in that mini-interview enough to know I was serious and thus I think that's why he's going to make an effort to get me a better job.
Anyway I apologise because I realise i'm rambling bigtime here but my brief time with that guy was invaluable... not only because I suddenly have someone with a huge amount of resources available that is going to get me a shot at some great opportunites, but because it made me realise from what he was saying how vibrant the I.T. market still is, and the prospects for earning some serious money are still there... in fact i'd say now is one of the best time to get into it and get established, it's an exciting time for technology!
To support the OP there's definately a lot of opportunities out there at the moment, you just have to take the bull by the horns and go for it.
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Gilly said:
No, it wasn't aimed at you at all - just a general impression I get from people who have actually had success starting from the bottom with qualifications. They seem to 'write' a degree of simply because they've managed to secure themselves a job - they're perhaps 1/2 years ahead of you when you leave uni (purely down to the graduates lack of industrial experiance) and believe that this means the degree is worthless when compared to hard work & graft which leads to experiance. Swings and roundabouts, I guess.
Design/Engineering - who wants to be stuck in support!! My ideal job would be as a Cisco network engineer I guess at the minute. I'd love to do field support for a few years (like travelling - understand it'd probably get tedious after a few years though) - troubleshooting/installation/planning.
I'm hoping to get a decent placement next year in something close to where I want to be, i'm trying to get as many cisco qualifications as I can whilst i'm at uni, to 1/ save money (since the uni's eqipped with everything I need in the labs) 2/ save time when I've left uni.
Hoping to become qualified up to CCIE... as well as taking other cisco quals (half way through Cisco's academy network security course at the moment)
Who knows anyway. Whoever didn't go uni missed out. Yeah your lucky sods in your secure jobs
but you missed out on 4 (3?) years of doing part time hours, getting smashed every night and having a loan to fuel it all With regards to the whole 'supporting' the future crap I spouted... I guess (I probably won't) but hopefully some people who have taken the time to carry on learning/reading/researching at uni will actually be the people who carry on searching for new things. I know loads of people don't go to uni for the right reasons - but those who have, you've generally got a better chance of them being the next nobel prize winner than someone who wanted to jump straight in earning cash.
A good thread in GD - have some stars!
Gilly is spot on.
Working outside the box (and comfort zone) is also reaps massive experience so don't think a degree is the only learning you need todo in life to deliver massive rewards.
A degree gives you a good grounding usually however knowing when, where, how and even if those aspects are applicable are down to experience.
In short - the toga crew are right - the greatest knowledge is knowing you know nothing.
A brief history of me:
1. 4 Year Software Engineering degree. 3rd Year in BT Labs..
From this I know a lot about the ideals of engineering. This also focused on process, quality etc as well as languages, design etc the final year for me could really be summed up as software process, final project, selected optional modules networks/distributed systems
2. 10 years in LogicaCMG (a large international consultancy) - various markets, software & consultancy. Everything from massive projects to two people projects then moving into product development.
My experience grew in software development, process, design, requirements capture - all a direct match to my degree.
Then there's the people/team management, project management, crap-hits-the-fan-customer-relations, management-relations, customer-loves-me-self-marketing, applying pressure, minimizing pressure etc etc.. including the politics, dealing-with-teflon-don, making friends and influencing people.... funny but it all boils down to the everyday experience that means people trust and know they can leave something in my hands and it gets done.
In addition there's the business area knowledge - in the past that's electricity but now that's mobile telecoms and the converging market. This technology aspect means a real depth to the understanding..
My length of service means I know the "system". Not to sound like the civil service!
3. Switched to Business Development a year ago.
Business development basically is responsible for taking the products to market.
Originally bringing technical knowledge about the product set, the internal workings, to the business development team. I work worldwide with marketing, regional sales forces, customers, trade shows and with our internal people all over the place.
In addition to my day job, I have been pushing a vision of how to make the best out of our integration with the sales-delivery process.. After spending time touting the vision(tm) - I have now been made responsible for managing process changes for our unit with the global sales-delivery pipeline.. my reward which gives me experience and people-visablility.
So there's experience to be had everywhere. Pick the right experience that suits you and don't be affraid to push your comfort envelope.
Instead I do a full time job, gain experience, get paid to fly around the world and experience other cultures and people - partying as I go..
Seriously.. will I remain where I am? Well whilst it's offering new experience I'll take it even if it means not earning top dollar - the only aspect is ensuring my current experience level gets rewarded and I'm not taken advantage of!
Gilly is spot on.
Working outside the box (and comfort zone) is also reaps massive experience so don't think a degree is the only learning you need todo in life to deliver massive rewards.
A degree gives you a good grounding usually however knowing when, where, how and even if those aspects are applicable are down to experience.
In short - the toga crew are right - the greatest knowledge is knowing you know nothing.
A brief history of me:
1. 4 Year Software Engineering degree. 3rd Year in BT Labs..
From this I know a lot about the ideals of engineering. This also focused on process, quality etc as well as languages, design etc the final year for me could really be summed up as software process, final project, selected optional modules networks/distributed systems
2. 10 years in LogicaCMG (a large international consultancy) - various markets, software & consultancy. Everything from massive projects to two people projects then moving into product development.
My experience grew in software development, process, design, requirements capture - all a direct match to my degree.
Then there's the people/team management, project management, crap-hits-the-fan-customer-relations, management-relations, customer-loves-me-self-marketing, applying pressure, minimizing pressure etc etc.. including the politics, dealing-with-teflon-don, making friends and influencing people.... funny but it all boils down to the everyday experience that means people trust and know they can leave something in my hands and it gets done.
In addition there's the business area knowledge - in the past that's electricity but now that's mobile telecoms and the converging market. This technology aspect means a real depth to the understanding..
My length of service means I know the "system". Not to sound like the civil service!
3. Switched to Business Development a year ago.
Business development basically is responsible for taking the products to market.
Originally bringing technical knowledge about the product set, the internal workings, to the business development team. I work worldwide with marketing, regional sales forces, customers, trade shows and with our internal people all over the place.
In addition to my day job, I have been pushing a vision of how to make the best out of our integration with the sales-delivery process.. After spending time touting the vision(tm) - I have now been made responsible for managing process changes for our unit with the global sales-delivery pipeline.. my reward which gives me experience and people-visablility.
So there's experience to be had everywhere. Pick the right experience that suits you and don't be affraid to push your comfort envelope.
NiCkNaMe said:Who knows anyway. Whoever didn't go uni missed out. Yeah your lucky sods in your secure jobs
Instead I do a full time job, gain experience, get paid to fly around the world and experience other cultures and people - partying as I go..
Seriously.. will I remain where I am? Well whilst it's offering new experience I'll take it even if it means not earning top dollar - the only aspect is ensuring my current experience level gets rewarded and I'm not taken advantage of!
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Associate
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- 8 Oct 2006
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- 1,236
touch said:First year
quite a lot of soft eng undergraduates here, not a single comp sci yet, (apart from me!)
Whats the better field to get into, soft eng or comp sci? Is comp sci too generalised to be able to get a job or what?
digisatman said:
That depends
Software engineering is more about the production of software, process & quality etc.
Computer science is more about the research and scientific application.
Both often have common cores. So saying one is better designer or better at implementing maths isn't always correct.
A good example of comp-sci would be working with the physics/maths bods in research&development of new products.
Think parallel computation and visualisation for CAT scanners etc. Getting the best coded algorithms and implementation onto hardware would be the comp-science bod..
Most maths/physics bods in this field are also pretty good with computers and getting algorithms sorted but lack the discipline to make it a complete final delivered product within a CAT scanner.
Often it's the language (such as maths) that is why research bods are hard to work with - hence a good go-between is the comp-sci...
So there's overlaps - each with their good points and bad points.
Currently there's a glut of opportunities within the next 4 years with parallel computation.
Look at the market with AMD+ATI, nVidia and Intel all pushing into a new computing paradigm - parallel computation.
digisatman said:
I am a computer scientist and have no problems finding jobs. NickK has pretty much sum'd up the differences between CS and SE. If you have a decent CS degree from a decent uni you should not have a problem, especially if you have a little experience. I am looking more towards working in R&D or further study because the prospects of 9-5 programming full time (on some crap business software) as opposed to the freelance work I do at the moment does not seem appealing.
Is anyone actually a member of the BCS here? Has there been any advantages for you if so? I am a member of IEEE but the BCS just seems like a waste of money.
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I've been interviewing for the past 2 weeks or so for four roles on my team. OK, so the positions are all internal so I have an idea of who they are from their current colleagues but the same still applies. I'd look as favourably on someone with good GCSEs, A-Levels and industry recognised qualifications as anyone with a degree. In some cases - especially if the person had the experience and knowledge to back it up in interview - I'd view the person with the industry recognised qualifications above the person with the degree.Joe42 said:
As mentioned previously though it all depends on the area of IT you wish to persue. I'd prefer to get myself onto a 1st line desk and slog my way through than attend Uni for a waste of a few years and thats what I did. Thats only been possible because I went through the support route and thats where I wanted to go though.
In general though, people have went to uni because they have better GCSE/A-level grades than their peers who didn't go to uni, so even if you were to ignore degrees as a criterion they should (on the whole) you will still get some degree-qualified people showing up on your shortlist. There was a good point about "industry qualifications" raised on the BBC website that it creates a form of "vendor lock-in" and makes people use the products that they're training course covers, rather than the best tool for the job from an objective POV.
imo a degree is purely another yardstick of learning ability, and a good course will introduce some of the numerical/ theoretical aspects that aren't covered in any industry certification courses except perhaps the high-level Cisco/Sun courses. However university courses will not (and should not imo) involve hands-on experience of Enterprise systems either, this can only be gained on the job and there will be some variance on what is used depending on corporate culture. In recent years I feel degrees in IT have received a bit of a bad press due to the glut of "computing" degrees of dubious academic merit being churned out, mainly by ex-polys. Unfortunately for us geeks, most HR depts can't tell the difference between a degree in Comp Sci and a degree in "Multimedia Technology".
The comments by the BCS are pure FUD imo, gleaned from looking at a very narrow set of statistics (i.e the number of students entering pure Comp-Sci courses). I'd also like to point out that these abstract skills won't really be used much in a 1st line support role but will be invaluable when you move onto more interesting things like development and are easier learned when you're young than trying to read-up on them at a later date having entered the industry young.
I really think the IT industry should take a look at similar industries such as engineering. People shouldnt need nor be expected to have degrees when entering the industry at the bottom, and should do some form of apprenticeship/ recognised on the job training. They should then be encouraged by their employers to continue their education as they progress through their career. Allied to this, employing the person on their potential rather than the combination of buzzwords on their CV would be a step in the right direction also.
P.s. I'm a member of the IoP and the BCS, and my main motivation for joining these organisations is the "freebies" such as magazines and diaries I get!
imo a degree is purely another yardstick of learning ability, and a good course will introduce some of the numerical/ theoretical aspects that aren't covered in any industry certification courses except perhaps the high-level Cisco/Sun courses. However university courses will not (and should not imo) involve hands-on experience of Enterprise systems either, this can only be gained on the job and there will be some variance on what is used depending on corporate culture. In recent years I feel degrees in IT have received a bit of a bad press due to the glut of "computing" degrees of dubious academic merit being churned out, mainly by ex-polys. Unfortunately for us geeks, most HR depts can't tell the difference between a degree in Comp Sci and a degree in "Multimedia Technology".
The comments by the BCS are pure FUD imo, gleaned from looking at a very narrow set of statistics (i.e the number of students entering pure Comp-Sci courses). I'd also like to point out that these abstract skills won't really be used much in a 1st line support role but will be invaluable when you move onto more interesting things like development and are easier learned when you're young than trying to read-up on them at a later date having entered the industry young.
I really think the IT industry should take a look at similar industries such as engineering. People shouldnt need nor be expected to have degrees when entering the industry at the bottom, and should do some form of apprenticeship/ recognised on the job training. They should then be encouraged by their employers to continue their education as they progress through their career. Allied to this, employing the person on their potential rather than the combination of buzzwords on their CV would be a step in the right direction also.
P.s. I'm a member of the IoP and the BCS, and my main motivation for joining these organisations is the "freebies" such as magazines and diaries I get!
Ignoring the obvious in this sentenceM0KUJ1N said:
... I'm not sure I agree with that. OK, you have the people who excel at school who go towards medicine, law, etc. and to continue towards their chosen career they must go to Uni and then possibly to futher learning centres following that - but solely concentrating on IT the best people from my college course went directly into IT from there.I don't think you can simply state that those with the best grades go to Uni and the others go to work. In the broad scheme of things that is necessarily how it works, in IT I don't believe it holds true.
Maybe a cultural difference but my mum would've kicked my **** if I'd got the grades to get into a good uni place but didn't go to uni. Also, if someone were to show up for a hypothetical job interview with 3A's at A-level but hadn't went to uni I know the first question I would be asking them as an interviewer
Cultural difference? :/M0KUJ1N said:
My parents let me make my own decisions.
M0KUJ1N said:Also, if someone were to show up for a hypothetical job interview with 3A's at A-level but hadn't went to uni I know the first question I would be asking them as an interviewer
Me too. It'd be to tell me about themselves, as Uni degrees are unrequired in my area of business.