IT support, 1st line & 2nd line

There will always be a first line. What the common trend is at the moment is to outsource the first line to a 24 hour third party desk of some kind who deal with basic queries and logging. The onsite guys will do the 2nd line. I can't see first line ever going away because the user base will always need a first point of contact. Sure in some companies/industry the first line will merge in to the second line, this has already been occurring since inception. My first job was a 1st/2nd line. Where i would answer the phone but also have basic server access and remote user access.

Desktop PC also will be around for ever. This idea that everything is going to be thin clients and cloud based is just a load of non sense. Maybe in some industries, but not completely across the board. Some industries require the functionality of a desktop and thin clients will never match that. But even if people are on thin clients or byod they still have to call IT support at some point.

The tiers are also more defined in larger organisations. If it is just 60 users then one person who does servers and is first point of contact could get by. But as you get to large companies and more complicated software installations, then you require more tiered approach and often specialists in much larger companies.
 
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anything I don't mind said:
There will always be a first line. What the common trend is at the moment is to outsource the first line to a 24 hour third party desk of some kind who deal with basic queries and logging. The onsite guys will do the 2nd line. I can't see first line ever going away because the user base will always need a first point of contact. Sure in some companies/industry the first line will merge in to the second line, this has already been occurring since inception. My first job was a 1st/2nd line. Where i would answer the phone but also have basic server access and remote user access.

Desktop PC also will be around for ever. This idea that everything is going to be thin clients and cloud based is just a load of non sense. Maybe in some industries, but not completely across the board. Some industries require the functionality of a desktop and thin clients will never match that. But even if people are on thin clients or byod they still have to call IT support at some point.
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I don't disagree, but I.T technicians / Desktop support has been greatly reduced over the years. Sensible techs moved into engineer positions and learned more about the 2/3rd line.

Yes there will always be a front line but the pay has dropped substantially. One thing i don't agree with is thin client power not being upto scratch. It depends on what your supporting ( design / 3d company who need edge power) and it depends on the internal investment on the servers.
But for the most part if your talking about PC's that are deployed manually then an Intel NUC ( or even less !) can handle everything an office worker can throw at it and a network image or even a usb pen can push out a build in a matter of 25mins without any technical knowledge required from 1st line.

So its either 1st line jobs that have become akin to box shifting or 2nd line jobs that have had to take on the low skill work as part of their job for no more increases in salary. ( why would they when its super easy stuff)
 
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phill1978 said:
I don't disagree, but I.T technicians / Desktop support has been greatly reduced over the years. Sensible techs moved into engineer positions and learned more about the 2/3rd line.

Yes there will always be a front line but the pay has dropped substantially. One thing i don't agree with is thin client power not being upto scratch. It depends on what your supporting ( design / 3d company who need edge power) and it depends on the internal investment on the servers.
But for the most part if your talking about PC's that are deployed manually then an Intel NUC can handle everything an office worker can throw at it and a network image or even a usb pen can push out a build in a matter of 25mins without any technical knowledge required from 1st line.

So its either 1st line jobs that have become akin to box shifting or 2nd line jobs that have had to take on the low skill work as part of their job for no more increases in salary. ( why would they when its super easy stuff)
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Thin clients are pathetic from my experience and i have seen some top end installations, recently as well. They have nothing on a modern desktop. Try doing development or design work or even in the legal sector with just a bit more than office, the desktop experience is still far better than thin clients. Thin clients have benefits and they do have applications, but to think it is going to replace desktops and sufficiently at that, is not realistic in my opinion.

No one deploys pc manually and if you are then you are doing it wrong. I am not aware of any desktop environments that are still deploying desktops manually. It all done with pxe boot and MDT, 10 min image. We have first line deploying desktop images easier than they can work out the citrix thin client interface, so go figure.

I was never a fan of the regimental tiered approached. I hate sticking first line in to a limited box where they can't even reset passwords. I hate ITIL and think it has been a negative affect on the IT industry, stupid americans. Of course it does exploit some known processes that existed before ITIL claimed them that like prioritisation and utilising SLA.

Funny we have a 2-4 hour sla for p3 where we work but we still get a call back after 5 mins if something is not done, its all just on paper end of day. The way i like to manage IT helpdesks is to get on top of it and stay on top of it. 0 call queue system. If you have a call queue in my opinion you are not managing your helpdesk properly or you have problems with your system that have not been addressed.

I am not even fan of this new craze to out souce the first line to some third party company. it just creates more problems and doesn't actually create a better service.

Where I work the first line guys are 1st/2nd and also they have full access to all the servers, although wouldn't make changes without running it past third line. They get exposure to the servers and can learn as much as they are willing to get involved. I taught the 1st/2nd line guy next to me, group policy, mdt, all legal server side software and more. While another guy i worked with on 1st/2nd line was not that interested to learn so he didn't.
 
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anything I don't mind said:
Thin clients are pathetic from my experience and i have seen some top end installations, recently as well. They have nothing on a modern desktop. Try doing development or design work or even in the legal sector with just a bit more than office, the desktop experience is still far better than thin clients. Thin clients have benefits and they do have applications, but to think it is going to replace desktops and sufficiently at that, is not realistic in my opinion.

No one deploys pc manually and if you are then you are doing it wrong. I am not aware of any desktop environments that are still deploying desktops manually. It all done with pxe boot and MDT, 10 min image. We have first line deploying desktop images easier than they can work out the citrix thin client interface, so go figure.
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When you need to swap 5,000 pc's because management put them on a 3 year lease, then show some sympathy for the sometimes awful decisions management make ;)

Also thin clients are only as bad as the network/server environment they are connected too, im not sure if your thinking old style terminal installation ? Im talking HyperV / VMware endpoints on gigabit lan and increasingly super fast wlan. They have worked well from my limited exposure through testing. Of course this is I.T we could talk semantics all day.

I was never a fan of the regimental tiered approached. I hate sticking first line in to a limited box where they can't even reset passwords. I hate ITIL and think it has been a negative affect on the IT industry, stupid americans. Of course it does exploit some known processes that existed before ITIL claimed them that like prioritisation and utilising SLA.
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Agree, ITIL sucks from my experience, I couldn't get my head around how it fit in with anything I did that I wasn't already doing.


Funny we have a 2-4 hour sla for p3 where we work but we still get a call back after 5 mins if something is not done, its all just on paper end of day. The way i like to manage IT helpdesks is to get on top of it and stay on top of it. 0 call queue system. If you have a call queue in my opinion you are not managing your helpdesk properly or you have problems with your system that have not been addressed.
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Not sure i haven't worked on a helpdesk or system such as that for what feels like forever. Before i moved out of the I.T sector I was doing some consultancy.

I am not even fan of this new craze to out souce the first line to some third party company. it just creates more problems and doesn't actually create a better service.
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if its cheaper...


Where I work the first line guys are 1st/2nd and also they have full access to all the servers, although wouldn't make changes without running it past third line. They get exposure to the servers and can learn as much as they are willing to get involved. I taught the 1st/2nd line guy next to me, group policy, mdt, all legal server side software and more. While another guy i worked with on 1st/2nd line was not that interested to learn so he didn't.
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Your current place sounds alright. For me, im just relaying how I have seen the industry shift and offering some thoughts on what I experienced, im no longer within the traditional I.T "sector" and quite happy for it :) i think il bow out now.
 
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Cruiser said:
when you say 365 do you mean office 365?
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anything cloud based I'd be aware of, you don't have to be an expert in it, but just know the ins and outs for now

Exchange 365
Exchange Online Protection
Office 365, Sharepoint, Onedrive integration
In Tune
Azure (float some test vms out)
Licensing models for cloud solutions

any third party companies doing on-premise to cloud syncing (federate365 etc etc)
 
I've been working in 1st line support for just over six months now. I had done a few IT courses and very little actual IT at my previous job. For me it seemed they only really wanted someone who had base knowledge and the right attitude, obviously this will vary at each company but just keep going for jobs. A lot of the advice on here has been good!

I don't want to hijack the thread but thought it would be a good place to ask. Those of you who are working in or know a bit about the IT sector, where would you suggest progressing to in the future? Where I work now is quite a large company with several 2nd/3rd line departments so its more of a case of focusing on a "career path" more than anything!
 
dowie said:
it is first line if they're the guys picking up the phone and initially handling the issues... it doesn't just apply to generic IT roles

we have a first line and second line team for the software product I work on - the first line guys get approx 2 issues a day (in addition to their backlog of issues) and will spend a bit of time diagnosing them... second line guys usually have several years of experience and specialise in a particular area of the system. First line guys will sometimes go to second line guys for some guidance/help with analysing an issue and/or will hand over an issue to them if it requires a bit more in depth analysis. Beyond that it is a case of going directly to the developer responsible for the particular bit of code that seems to be at fault.

It really depends what you're supporting - for general IT stuff perhaps it makes sense to employ a team of numpties to log tickets and perform simple tasks... If however you're supporting something more complicated and your customers are paying serious cash for the maintenance contract then you want the first person who picks up the phone to at least know what they're talking about and to start initially analysing an issue if not actually resolving it right away.
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Well yeah, the first guy who picks the phone up at VMware isn't going to be a "1st line helpdesk" dude either. We're arguing the same thing.

1st line helpdesk has a certain image attached to it, I would argue that what you are describing isn't 1st line helpdesk, it's application support.
 
1st and 2nd Line defintions will differ wildly from company to company.

1st Line - If you take it to the letter of ITIL (which, IMO, is a load of tosh) can be done by anyone, even those with ZERO IT Support specific experience. It's relatively skill-less.

However, for many companies 1st line blurrs into the 2nd line role. Especially Small and Medium sized businesses.

The job description should allude to whether it's a 'pure' 1st line role or not. You don't need any prior experience to do a 1st line role, although it may be desirable. Ideally you want to avoid these jobs as a long term prospect and at most use them as a foot in the door.

If you are getting poor feedback it's likely because of your actual application rather than your experience (Or supposed lack of)
 
On the plus side once you sort your CV out and bag an interview you are almost guaranteed the job as long as you show up on time, well presented, have bothered to wash, managed to dress yourself and can communicate clearly.
 
Caged said:
Well yeah, the first guy who picks the phone up at VMware isn't going to be a "1st line helpdesk" dude either. We're arguing the same thing.

1st line helpdesk has a certain image attached to it, I would argue that what you are describing isn't 1st line helpdesk, it's application support.
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yup it is application support... but we do have a team that initially takes the calls and deals with issues they can & a team that doesn't take calls but gets more complicated issues handed over to them by the first team

they are referred to as 1st line and 2nd line

I guess if people are only considering '1st line' to involve fixing problems with PCs or printers or whatever etc... then it has nothing to do with any of that. We've got a few corporate IT types who deal with that sort of thing internally for us too though there is no help desk to call rather a ticket system and/or going over and grabbing one of them if they're free - they also have to be fairly generalist - being a software company most people are fairly IT literate so these guys don't tend to deal with petty issues.
But from my pov '1st line' is the team of people who initially deal with our customers' issues.
 
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I got into IT with no experience as I found an apprenticeship with a local college, which was primarily a 1st/2nd line role. As the apprenticeship ended, the college made a new 3rd line role for me and I got hired, and I've been here since. I look after the entirety of the college infrastructure (all switch fabric, VMware infrastructure etc etc) with one other guy. Show willingness and it will go a long way!
 
You should look at getting a few entry level qualifications, maybe the A+ or something like that, or even the free Linux Foundation Intro course that's available online. Getting something extra on your CV will help you to get noticed.

You should also expand your job search to places like the local council or even NHS jobs: https://www.jobs.nhs.uk/ The pay is lower in the public sector but so are the barriers to entry in some cases.

I also wouldn't limit your search to support jobs, particularly those that are labelled 1st or 2nd line. When I graduated (with a history degree no less) I went straight into a very lowly junior admin role with a local school - the pay was terrible but over the course of working there I did everything from desktop support to networking to server management to application support to printers. So look out for trainee positions as well. You say you work in retail? If it's for a big chain, see if there's any openings on your internal IT team.

You should also step up your job applications - expect to apply for hundreds of positions. You will eventually get call backs from recruitment agents - make friends with them, ask them for tips on improving your CV, ask them where they see the positions opening for guys like you. If nothing comes of an opening (recruitment guys are notorious for never getting back to you) call them back and find out what happened, and how you can improve for the next opening. Ask them to keep you in mind, and check back every couple of weeks. Always be friendly, keep your frustration under control.

Honestly, with no experience you are going to have to carpet-bomb your CV on every position that looks even vaguely appropriate, improving it with every rejection and making every effort to make yourself more attractive as a candidate. Something will come up, even if it takes months - just stick with it. The last time I changed jobs I probably sent out 200 applications over 6 months, got maybe 12 callbacks from recruitment guys, 6 interviews, and 2 job offers.
 
For first line, we will take on most people with a good attitude but with some proficiency in IT; not necessarily in a formal environment. Things that will stand you in good stead are if you've been playing with Linux at home for example, so already know your way around a command line environment.

The issue is that there are lots of people that BS on their CV and as soon as you ask them about their so called buzzwords they've added to the list of technologies they've used or understand a lot of people end up saying they haven't really used it that much.
 
You need to get your CV through the tards in the job agency, they tend not to have a clue what any of the job specs mean and will literally match words from the job spec to your CV. On your CV after you personal details list your skills you have against what is required in the job spec to make it easy for them.

oh and the lack of responses is normal, they're only interested if they think you can sell you. Once you get a job you can happily ignore them back and waste their time.

MW
 
Agencies do very much have access to jobs that aren't released into the open. They do come in handy in this scenario.

1st line will always exist. There will always be a need for a first POC and you don't want that being your skilled resource.
 
One thing - Find out what companies are in the local area that do not outsource their IT.
Or local IT support companies.

Ask them if they have any positions coming up.
Getting someone local / who is keen to learn is normally a good thing for them.
 
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