Jag, Land Rover, Tata

Django x2 · 24 Sep 2009 at 14:10

Ok, so I know tooling, UK work force won't change quality but something niggles me that if I bought a modern Jag or LR, it would fall apart or smell funny.

Could you ever see yourself buying a new Jag these days? Costs, other than workforce, will have to be cut somewhere.

manic_man · 24 Sep 2009 at 14:15

You're assuming of course that Tata is a poorer backing company than Ford ever was.

Personally I am not so sure this is the case, and there is no way the Tata parts bin is compatible with either brands, so, unlike when Ford owned them, all the switchgear etc should be bespoke or at least only shared between Jag and LR.

As a small but reasoanble example: did the quality of Tetley tea suddenly dive when Tata bought the brand?

The guy who owns Tata is one of the richest in the world, it's a vast empire, only going to get vaster as the Nano is rolled out in the parts of the world it is designed for.

Django x2 · 24 Sep 2009 at 14:22

I agree to an extent, but they've already done a magnificent job of loosing £250m since they took it over.

Hardly a start I would call productive?

manic_man · 24 Sep 2009 at 14:29

Very true, but from a quality point of view I currently don't worry about it no.

Of course if they keep loosing money, then things might take a dive, but i'm pretty sure this is why Ford sold them in the first place as they simply couldnt afford to run them to the standard required of their image.

The Land Rover dealer network, at least so far, doesn't appear to have changed, the ones that were good still are and the ones that were rubbish, still are!

Only time will tell I suppose, but the latest refresh of the Range Rover (which i'm sure was mostly instigated under Ford, but Tata didn't put a stop to it) seems to be very successful, with the press waxing lyrical about its quality. Not too mention some of its nice little innovative touches such as the two way dash screen and entirely CGI instrument binnacle.

J1nxy · 24 Sep 2009 at 14:42

Lucero said:
I agree to an extent, but they've already done a magnificent job of loosing £250m since they took it over.

Hardly a start I would call productive?

But then the global downturn didn't exactly do them any favours did it?

Yes I will buy Jag, the quality of the XF is easily on par with the BMW/Merc/Audi equivalents if not better. The dealers I've dealt with have continued to be good but like all these things the dealers are a law unto themselves and good dealers I'd guess will stay good, the poor ones will continue to be poor.

IAmATeaf · 24 Sep 2009 at 17:18

Jaguar/LR have been losing money before Tata got involved, that's why Ford wanted shot of them? The global slump obviously doesn't help, if Tata are going to turn the company around then it will take a few years and will involve a cull in the workforce, this first of which is/has happened. For the volume of sales the company has to become more streamlined.

Would I buy 1, hell yes, the new XF looks the part and the current XJ is a nice place to be in.

Jonnycoupe · 26 Sep 2009 at 21:55

Lucero said:
I agree to an extent, but they've already done a magnificent job of loosing £250m since they took it over.

Hardly a start I would call productive?

They had spent a fortune on new technologys and products coming out.

The cashflow for this year was a deficite of £500M, but last year they churned £800M of their profit into R&D, including 800 new jobs (me included). Land Rover was making pretty large profit from the Range Rover cashcows.

Should they have sat pretty with £300M or moved forward with their products? From what Ive seen JLR is a pretty independant company, the parent company guides with decisions but certainly doesnt enforce anything the JLR board end up doing.

mikeh501 · 26 Sep 2009 at 22:14

Nearly bought a LR Disco3 HSE last year (2008MY). The biggest reason for not doing so was the reliability problems with them

Still love the vehicle, but couldnt put up with the issues.

Also, I think the Disco4 doesn't look anywhere near as good as the 3, pity they didnt just put the new 3.0 engine in rather than try to make it look like an RRS.

Jonnycoupe · 26 Sep 2009 at 22:16

Disco 4 rear lights are tragic :mad:

Sin_Chase · 26 Sep 2009 at 22:49

It's not like quality was stellar before the takeover!

Seen no end of NEW Jags and LRs back into the workshop for stupid things.

Mr_Sukebe · 26 Sep 2009 at 23:39

The real question is whether the cost savings will involve a significant cut on the quality control area. Pre-Ford, QC just didn't seem to exist. Ford have clearly done a brilliant job to bring Jag upto scratch. Lets just hope the new owners don't flush that down the toilet.

Jonnycoupe · 26 Sep 2009 at 23:45

Closing Solihull will be a massive step forward in quality if you ask me.

Halewood is a model of a production line with courtious staff. The brummies are rude lazy Rover relics.

rare · 27 Sep 2009 at 00:16

If I could afford one, I would have an XFR over pretty much anything

I have been i a diesel XF and was very impressed, the range rover and the sport are great cars to, even if the later has a bit of an image problem. Would love a go in the new 500BHP sport!

I hope they make it a sucess, it would be tragic if now after all the hard work and that they are starting to make great cars again that they would fall.

Django x2 · 27 Sep 2009 at 13:03

mikeh501 said:
Nearly bought a LR Disco3 HSE last year (2008MY). The biggest reason for not doing so was the reliability problems with them Still love the vehicle, but couldnt put up with the issues.

Also, I think the Disco4 doesn't look anywhere near as good as the 3, pity they didnt just put the new 3.0 engine in rather than try to make it look like an RRS.

Really, I think the 4 is a far cry from the 3. The drive was superb and the front end is a great improvement too. Rear lights are ok, and night time they look the bizz

mikeh501 · 27 Sep 2009 at 13:26

Lucero said:
Really, I think the 4 is a far cry from the 3. The drive was superb and the front end is a great improvement too. Rear lights are ok, and night time they look the bizz

Yeah but, if i'd wanted an RRS i'd have bought one. The whole point of the Disco for me is that it can be a understated MPV one day, and an executive mile muncher the next. The addition of the extra bling and colour coded bits just makes it too much like an RRS tbh.

If they have updated some of the running gear/suspension, then thats cool. Just wish they had left the looks alone.

Kappa · 27 Sep 2009 at 13:27

IAmATeaf said:
that's why Ford wanted shot of them?

Its more a case of the CEO at the time was all over buying up all sorts of brands for ridiculous money and inherently making bad decisions. Since the re-structuring from 2006 and the arrival of Alan Mulally, there's a strong focus that Ford is the main lead brand and that we should keep with it. Hence the sale of Aston and JLR. Of course if they were turning out huge profits I'm sure the decision would be different, but Aston weren't doing so badly but still sold, as well as the controlling stake in Mazda. Volvo is still clinging on to us since manufacturing, parts, systems are so intertwined with Ford it's not so easy to split, but will soon.

Quite a little empire at one point. Its clear something like that is doable, (VW!), however Ford weren't able to pull it off.

trackrat · 27 Sep 2009 at 16:29

Jonnycoupe said:
Closing Solihull will be a massive step forward in quality if you ask me.

Halewood is a model of a production line with courtious staff. The brummies are rude lazy Rover relics.

Considering that Jaguar has made a loss for the last 7 years and Land Rover has made a profit for the last 5 years it would seem that the lazy Rover relics win hands down over there Jaguar counterparts.

Jonnycoupe · 27 Sep 2009 at 17:47

trackrat said:
Considering that Jaguar has made a loss for the last 7 years and Land Rover has made a profit for the last 5 years it would seem that the lazy Rover relics win hands down over there Jaguar counterparts.

Easy with the cash cow Range Rover, decent R&D and engineering with good supplier selection from the procurement teams. Doesn't automatically mean the production line is the best, I dont like hearing bleating noises and asking why the lost sheep are here when I went to Solihull.

LRX will be made at Halewood anyway.

trackrat · 29 Sep 2009 at 23:38

Considering that Halewood, was revamped about 4 years ago and castle Bromwich has also had a refit, the chance of Solihull staying open are minimal.
The price of land in Solihull is ridiculous, and when I worked there we used to joke about it shutting down and becoming a housing estate, as all the roads and the drainage systems had been updated.

Warrantywise · 6 Dec 2009 at 19:00

I dread the day the Range Rover Hybrid comes out that TATA are talking about! A range rover with one axle powered by the engine and the other powered by batteries! Sounds horrendous! People who drive LS600 Lexus or Range Rovers are not interested in saving the planet - dont they understand this! If they were they would drive Prius'!!

Jag, Land Rover, Tata

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