Judder when braking

Six6siX

Six6siX

Six6siX

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Joined
25 Nov 2004
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Location
Hertfordshire
I had my front and rear disks/pads/sensors replaced with OEM parts about 3 (ish) months ago.

I now get juddering through the steering wheel when braking - possible causes? My first instinct was warped disks? Normal driving is fine with no vibration or juddering at all.

If it is something brakes related what are the chances of the issue being rectified as the work was done relatively recently? It was done at an independent specialist.

I've got an Inspection II coming up as well so may get that done at the same time.
 
First things first,

- Tyre pressures.
- Hit any curbs recently?
- Gone down any potholes recently?
- You may have been a bit too hard on your brakes when bedding them in causing the friction material of the pad to heat up and bond to the disc - this creates and uneven surface on the disc which could be related to your problem.
- Had wheels checked for balance?
 
Right, here goes :p

Gaygle said:
First things first,

- Tyre pressures.
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All fine, checked them within the last couple of days, tyres are all still good with reasonable tread on all corners.

- Hit any curbs recently?


- Gone down any potholes recently?
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Nope to both these!

- You may have been a bit too hard on your brakes when bedding them in causing the friction material of the pad to heat up and bond to the disc - this creates and uneven surface on the disc which could be related to your problem.
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Hmm don't recall doing any heavy stops after I got them done, I felt I was careful bedding in. Also, most of my driving is motorway or A roads, steady speed and they have been perfectly fine up till now. Would something like that take this long to come to light? I've probably done about 5-6k miles with them.


- Had wheels checked for balance?
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Had alignment done shortly after I bought the car, but not since. Would poor balance not cause issues when driving normally as well though?
 
99% says its material stuck on the discs, if the car hasnt moved a lot then it could even be lefts overs of rust or where the pads have stuck to the disc

just need to drive it more to clean up the discs
 
Matt82 said:
99% says its material stuck on the discs, if the car hasnt moved a lot then it could even be lefts overs of rust or where the pads have stuck to the disc

just need to drive it more to clean up the discs
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If I drive it anymore I will be living in it! :p
 
ABS kicking in errantly? ABS does produce a kind of juddering effect, I suppose it could be confused by your new brakes?
 
Mr Jack said:
ABS kicking in errantly? ABS does produce a kind of juddering effect, I suppose it could be confused by your new brakes?
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You can feel it through the pedal and steering wheel, so I don't think so. Also no lights on dash showing ABS/DSC activity


edit: any other thoughts? Its going to be looked at tomorrow anyway so will see what they think, just like to go fully armed with some knowledge :)
 
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Instinct tells me, warped discs, exactly the same problem I had on my old car, juddering through steering wheel when braking from generally 35mph+

Most likely cause is uneven wear on the disc and/or hard spots in the material. Uneven wear can usually be resolved by a quick session on a lathe, hard spots are unlikely to go and the juddering will return eventually.
 
Exactly the same thing happened on my 330i. Turned out it was some dodgy disks which had got too hot and warped. Took it back to the garage and they changed them for me and were going to send the others back to the manufacturer.
 
Sounds like warped discs. Exactly the same happened to me a while back when I was driving down some mountains. Brakes overheated - but it went away when they cooled. The main cause is usually brake deposits on the disc or warped discs. Since deposits wear away pretty quickly, I would say it is the discs. Possibly an impurity in the manufactering process. May still be under warranty?
 
Ok, just an update: culprit - wishbone bushes quite badly worn, making the wheel wobble when braking... Disks apparently seem ok but further checks to be done after the bushes are replaced.

Appears the E46 units are combined with the balljoint, so not the cheapest parts in the world. Quoted £135 a side for the part - sound right?

Going to get the Inspection II done at the same time, what is a good price for this these days? Been quoted £350 inc parts and labour.
 
Are the prices from BMW?

I managed to get BMW down to about £315 for the Insp II however they wanted a lot more for brake fluid change (~£100 more iirc) and coolant change (£silly) which were also needed.

Ended up going to a Specialist who did the coolant change, brake fluid change and oil change with LL-01 approved Mobil 1 fully synth, with OEM parts for £320 ish (iirc). They also did a thorough check on the car and found a puncture (£15 repair) and checked all the bushings for deteriation.
 
Gaygle said:
Are the prices from BMW?

I managed to get BMW down to about £315 for the Insp II however they wanted a lot more for brake fluid change (~£100 more iirc) and coolant change (£silly) which were also needed.

Ended up going to a Specialist who did the coolant change, brake fluid change and oil change with LL-01 approved Mobil 1 fully synth, with OEM parts for £320 ish (iirc). They also did a thorough check on the car and found a puncture (£15 repair) and checked all the bushings for deteriation.
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No, prices aren't from BMW, from a Specialist. It is including correct oil, new plugs, other usual bits etc

Matt82 said:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml

good reading about warped discs
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Thats a very good read, thanks. Lots of information on there.
 
If its badly worn Wishbone bushes (im guessing front wishbone, rear bushes are the culprits) then 125 a side is very over priced, sounds like they are replacing the bush and bracket when its only the bush that needs replacing.

You can buy bushes that offer better durability and handling for around £45, labour on that with an independant shouldnt more than 1 hours worth.

But I had the same issue with my 330, the front wishbone rear bushes were worn and seriously perrished to the point it would rattle badly when going over rough terrain, but I never had a problem with judder when braking.
 
MadMossy said:
If its badly worn Wishbone bushes (im guessing front wishbone, rear bushes are the culprits) then 125 a side is very over priced, sounds like they are replacing the bush and bracket when its only the bush that needs replacing.

You can buy bushes that offer better durability and handling for around £45, labour on that with an independant shouldnt more than 1 hours worth.

But I had the same issue with my 330, the front wishbone rear bushes were worn and seriously perrished to the point it would rattle badly when going over rough terrain, but I never had a problem with judder when braking.
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Yeah thats the ones.

Yeah, now I can't remember what the exact parts were that he mentioned and I didn't have a pen at the time. Essentially, he said that some part of the wishbone/bushes comes as part of the balljoint (?) and can't be bought separately from BMW so if the balljoint needs replacing at some point soon (getting to a point mileage wise where things like that would start to go) then it would be replacing the rest needlessly. Does that sound likely?

Otherwise, yeah the cheaper option was available which didn't include the balljoint.
 
If its the front wishbone rear bush, then it is housed in a bracket, BMW only supply the whole bracket + bushing as a whole, but the problem is the bushing is still made from rubber and will perrish just as quickly as your current one has (~50,000 miles).

You really only need to get the bushes themselfs which would have to be 3rd party ones, Powerflex do some great bushings that are much more durable than the ones BMW supply and also offer slight improvements to tyre wear and handling.

These would require the old bushings to be removed from the bracket which is nothing more than pushing the old out and pushing the new ones in. The whole job is no more a challenge than changing a wheel if you have the tools.

These are the bushes required if your car uses the newer larger size bushes (66mm)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Powerflex-Wis...39563271?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM

This is what you are likely to be charged for if you go with your original quote.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FRONT-WISHBON...04284656?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM

The bracket + bush, you only need the bush, the garage are just taking the easy option as it would be a simple unbolt old, replace with new job taking no more than 5 minutes.
 
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Excellent, thanks for the info. So as long as the wishbones themselves aren't knackered, its just the bushings I need?

What was he talking about with the ball joint then? :confused:
 
The wishbone itself has ball joints in it, the garage need to be specific about the fault as the front wishbone rear bush and wishbone ball joints are seperate parts.

An entire wish bone with ball joints + rear bush kit can be had on ebay for around 200, thats left and right hand side.
 
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