Keto/Low Carb Diet

[ttaskmaster]

I've seen all the progress posts of people having lost over 60lbs in 9 months or less. I've tried cleaning up my diet to cut out all carbs, but...I just can't stick with it.

That sounds like a lot of weight... more like one of those Exante 500cal things.
Thing is, this is low carb, not zero carb. The main things to cut out are sugars and complex carbs like pasta, bread, potato, pastry, cake, etc and keep what carbs you do take in fairly low.

But unless you're planning to remain keto for the rest of your life, I think it is a lifestyle, just like any other correct eating style.

The point of a diet is to get rid of a load of weight, so you can start living a more active lifestyle and exercising without risking a heart attack.

 

[Somnambulist]

I've seen all the progress posts of people having lost over 60lbs in 9 months or less. I've tried cleaning up my diet to cut out all carbs, but...I just can't stick with it. I started thinking of non-surgical means to lift skin tissues. I heard positive reviews about pdo threads procedure. Keto really gives great results. But unless you're planning to remain keto for the rest of your life, I think it is a lifestyle, just like any other correct eating style.

It's just another method of calorie restriction. Whenever calories and protein are matched in metabolic ward studies (e.g. Hall et all 2016), there's no meaningful difference in results or health markers. This never goes down well with Keto absolutists. Gary Taubes spend a great deal of money setting up studies to prove his 'carbs are bad!' hypothesis... which subsequently failed to give him the results he wanted, which amused the evidence-based crowd greatly.

I believe the literature is starting to build up on how there's a low long-term success rate for people maintaining a ketogenic diet, which isn't surprising.

 

[Somnambulist]

The main things to cut out are sugars and complex carbs like pasta, bread, potato, pastry, cake, etc and keep what carbs you do take in fairly low.

(I know this is the keto/low carb thread and if that way of dieting works for you, cool)

Potato has one of the highest satiety index ratings and is ideal for diets because of this. It's a staple for me when cutting (although I don't go as extreme as this guy did...) Pasty and cakes are just as fat-laden as they are with carbohydrate and fall under the 'low nutrient, low fibre, high calorie/low volume' umbrella, which is what people should generally be minimising regardless of whether they're dieting or not.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Potato has one of the highest satiety index ratings and is ideal for diets because of this.

As far as I have bothered listening to SWMBO about it: Sugars (including fruit juice) and complex carbs like potato are more prone to being stored by teh body instead of being more readily available for burning off, which is why people often get fat on them. Cheese, eggs, beef, apples and oranges are all comparatively high on the satiety index too, but not prone to that same storage.
More important, though, is the fullness factor per calorie. There's more, involving glycemic indecies and various calculators, but I believe I'd become quite bored at that stage... sorry.

 

[Somnambulist]

SWMBO has been suckered into believing the cultists. There's no 'prone to', everything you eat is either used immediately or stored - dietary fat is stored as fat with 98% efficiency, for instance - but if you're in an energy deficit over a day/week/whatever, the net result is that everything that was ingested that wasn't used immediately and got stored also gets used, plus whatever you've already got stored to make up the deficit. Fat cells aren't prisons. This has been proven time and again in the research, no matter how badly the zealots cry otherwise: if protein and calories are matched then there's no real difference between results from a low carb or regular diet. What matters is what type of diet you enjoy and can adhere to, because that's the one that will get you results, and after that, if it's a sustainable way of eating because the majority of people don't fail at dieting, they fail at maintaining their weight after the diet.

 

[ttaskmaster]

SWMBO has been suckered into believing the cultists. There's no 'prone to', everything you eat is either used immediately or stored - dietary fat is stored as fat with 98% efficiency, for instance - but if you're in an energy deficit over a day/week/whatever, the net result is that everything that was ingested .....

Sorry, kinda zoned out there. You were starting to sound like her.
All I know is it works for her and she's happy... and I get lots of steak on the braai as a result.
ISTR someone on here saying something about diabetics and different foods also being stored vs used immediately as well, drawing some similarities to low carb/Ketosis/Paleo stuff...
But then everyone here knows beyond all possible doubt, that it's only ever just calories in vs calories out, end of , close thread, say no more, etc, etc... so it's all moot.

 

[Randomface74]

I lost 2 stone in 2 months on it, but once I got bored and started reintroducing other food the weight just came back on over about a year or so.

 

[krooton]

Sorry, kinda zoned out there. You were starting to sound like her.
All I know is it works for her and she's happy... and I get lots of steak on the braai as a result.
ISTR someone on here saying something about diabetics and different foods also being stored vs used immediately as well, drawing some similarities to low carb/Ketosis/Paleo stuff...
But then everyone here knows beyond all possible doubt, that it's only ever just calories in vs calories out, end of , close thread, say no more, etc, etc... so it's all moot.

They also seem to ignore the other aspects not to do with weight loss.

I don't need to lose any weight given I am 78kgs, 5'11" with 15% body fat.

What I have found from cutting my carbs down to under 25g per day, but still eating calories for maintainence:

Fall asleep and stay asleep WAY better (even though I am still doing caffeine in the same way as before, and go to bed at the same time)
Wake up without grogginess, pretty much good to go as soon as my alarm goes off
No mid-afternoon and evening commute crashes (I would frequently start dozing off on the train/tube going home, even if I had been having good sleep)
Meals are properly satiating, so I don't get the urge to snack

So even though we aren't going to be so restrictive on our carbs after the wedding, I'm still going to be cutting our sugar as much as possible, and try to keep all other carbs at under 100g per day.

 

[itsallaboutyou]

Diet Doctor is a good site for recipes if you're stuck. I've been following the BSD (I'm not diabetic, nor pre-diabetic) but all my fat was round my tum. Dr Michael Mosley is the originator - from the BBC.

In essence, its VLC but with only 800cals permitted. Some might say faddy - and I'd agree to a point. So far, I'm 3 stone down approaching the end of my 8 weeks. In terms of exercise, it's been the usual 10k steps a day and the odd jog - but I'm seeing results so far. No way is it sustainable in the long term, and I know that I'll have to up my exercise when I up my food..

I'm then just looking to keep myself on the straight and narrow..

 

[DrToffnar]

About a month and a half into a bit of a lifestyle change at the moment. Joined the gym at my work and do 30-45 minute cardio 4 or 5 times a week minimum and cut out a lot of the junk food I was eating before.

Diet generally goes as follows:

Morning - Overnight oats with mixed seeds, frozen forest fruit, honey and cinnamon.
Mid morning - Banana or Apple.

Afternoon - This changes a little more frequently as I get very bored of a lot of the options. Generally a mixed salad with Chicken, maybe a Sandwich (generally on brown bread) but more often then not it's Quinoa with Brocolli and Sugar snap Peas with Olive Oil, Braggs Amino Acid and some stock for flavour.

Mid Afternoon - Anohter Banana or perhaps a biscuit or two just to line the stomach before I hit the Gym.

Evening - Generally a little more flexible here. More often then not it's omelettes, salads, fish with tatties and veg etc.


My starting weight was 97.3kg and I've now just hit the 92kg mark! Only 2kg off my first target weight which I feel pretty good about if I'm honest.

I think it's the exercise that's done it and (ironically) the LACK of a stricter adherence to any particular diet. I'm not for one second suggesting that those sorts of diets don't work, but the fact that I've allowed myself to have a treat every day has kept me on the straight and narrow with regards to sticking to a neater, more healthy diet in general.

 

[Rannoch]

My brother is interested in this. He need to lose a lot of weight.

Any good books out there? I’ll buy it for his well being.

 

[Somnambulist]

I think it's the exercise that's done it and (ironically) the LACK of a stricter adherence to any particular diet. I'm not for one second suggesting that those sorts of diets don't work, but the fact that I've allowed myself to have a treat every day has kept me on the straight and narrow with regards to sticking to a neater, more healthy diet in general.

The literature is strongly in favour of less rigid approaches to eating; better longer-term adherence, better long-term weight management and less likelihood of disordered eating/orthorexia/poor relationship with food.

 

[D.P.]

The literature is strongly in favour of less rigid approaches to eating; better longer-term adherence, better long-term weight management and less likelihood of disordered eating/orthorexia/poor relationship with food.

Yeah, you need a lifestyle change that will last for the rest of you life, not some short term fix that is quickly lost. Minor calorie reductions, but mainly a switch to whole and wholesome foods. Lots of fruits and vegetables, less processed foods, butballowibg yourself regular treats and not being too strict. Exercise is a bug component, an hour or more 5+days a week makes a massive difference to risks from hear disease, life expectancy etc.

 

[D.P.]

They also seem to ignore the other aspects not to do with weight loss.

I don't need to lose any weight given I am 78kgs, 5'11" with 15% body fat.

What I have found from cutting my carbs down to under 25g per day, but still eating calories for maintainence:

Fall asleep and stay asleep WAY better (even though I am still doing caffeine in the same way as before, and go to bed at the same time)
Wake up without grogginess, pretty much good to go as soon as my alarm goes off
No mid-afternoon and evening commute crashes (I would frequently start dozing off on the train/tube going home, even if I had been having good sleep)
Meals are properly satiating, so I don't get the urge to snack

So even though we aren't going to be so restrictive on our carbs after the wedding, I'm still going to be cutting our sugar as much as possible, and try to keep all other carbs at under 100g per day.

None of those symptoms have anything to do with eating a healthy percentage of carbs though. It is likely your diet has changed significantly , and this you are eating less processed foods.

If you increased carbs from vegetables and reduced meat and fat macros you will likely feel even better.

 

[D.P.]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext

Recent laRecent large cohort study. very clear that to maximize health and life expectancy you need 50-55% of your calories from Carbs. And protein is best spourced from plants, nuts and seeds to boost moderate protein from meat and fish.

All these people on a stupid low carb diet putting themselves into an early grave

 

[krooton]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext

Recent laRecent large cohort study. very clear that to maximize health and life expectancy you need 50-55% of your calories from Carbs. And protein is best spourced from plants, nuts and seeds to boost moderate protein from meat and fish.

All these people on a stupid low carb diet putting themselves into an early grave

Interesting reading, though a few things jump out at me.

They state the meat-focused low-carb diet had the lowest consumption of fruit and veg on average, but any low-carb diet worth its salt would advise to eat plenty (actually loads) of low carb vegetables and even certain fruit (mainly berries) as long as you maintain your macros.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/keto/vegetables

Yes, some people think keto/low carb means nothing but bacon, cheese and coconut oil, but this is certainly not the recommended way to eat.

There is also the table with mean data, showing the lowest carb intake group (Q1) to be more male-leaning on average (and there is plenty of known evidence of men being poor at keeping on top of their health and going for check-ups).
Q1 also had the highest mean diabetes sufferers, which could indicate many moving to keto because they already had diabetes (already putting their mortality risk higher).
Q1 also has a significantly higher amount of current or past smokers, which again will up their over all mortality risk.
Q1 also had the lowest score for fibre intake. Low carb and fibre intake are not mutually exclusive.
Q1 had the lowest score for excercise.

So taking their dietary macro ratios out of the equation, and the Q1 group are in general leading unhealthier lives than the other Qs.

Finally, putting on my tin-foil hat ( ) for a few seconds:

Novartis and Zogenix helped to fund the study, both pharma companies with seizure, epilepsy and inflammation drugs. Studies have shown the ketogenic diet to reduce inflammation, and it originally came about as a way to treat epilepsy in children (however that is not the same keto diet that is suggested today).

At the end of the day, finding what works for you as an individual is what matters, as mean data is mean data, and we all have our own nuances, be they metabolic, psychological, genetic, etc.

 

[smit101]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext

Recent laRecent large cohort study. very clear that to maximize health and life expectancy you need 50-55% of your calories from Carbs. And protein is best spourced from plants, nuts and seeds to boost moderate protein from meat and fish.

All these people on a stupid low carb diet putting themselves into an early grave

39% of daily calories from carbs is considered low carb in this study! That's not even close to low carb, let alone keto!

 

[D.P.]

Interesting reading, though a few things jump out at me.

They state the meat-focused low-carb diet had the lowest consumption of fruit and veg on average, but any low-carb diet worth its salt would advise to eat plenty (actually loads) of low carb vegetables and even certain fruit (mainly berries) as long as you maintain your macros.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/keto/vegetables

Yes, some people think keto/low carb means nothing but bacon, cheese and coconut oil, but this is certainly not the recommended way to eat.

There is also the table with mean data, showing the lowest carb intake group (Q1) to be more male-leaning on average (and there is plenty of known evidence of men being poor at keeping on top of their health and going for check-ups).
Q1 also had the highest mean diabetes sufferers, which could indicate many moving to keto because they already had diabetes (already putting their mortality risk higher).
Q1 also has a significantly higher amount of current or past smokers, which again will up their over all mortality risk.
Q1 also had the lowest score for fibre intake. Low carb and fibre intake are not mutually exclusive.
Q1 had the lowest score for excercise.

So taking their dietary macro ratios out of the equation, and the Q1 group are in general leading unhealthier lives than the other Qs.

Finally, putting on my tin-foil hat ( ) for a few seconds:

Novartis and Zogenix helped to fund the study, both pharma companies with seizure, epilepsy and inflammation drugs. Studies have shown the ketogenic diet to reduce inflammation, and it originally came about as a way to treat epilepsy in children (however that is not the same keto diet that is suggested today).

At the end of the day, finding what works for you as an individual is what matters, as mean data is mean data, and we all have our own nuances, be they metabolic, psychological, genetic, etc.

While a reasonable analysis, this paper is just 1 of many that indicate the same findings.

While obviously there is a difference between a high meat low carb and a lower carb diet, the fact is reducing carbs often comes at the expense of increasing meat. The science is very clear that higher meat diets increase health risks,s o one would have to be very careful tryign to go low carb without consuming excess meat.

The results were adjusted for age/gender/smoking in at least some of the instances, the paper is fairly complex and I haven't read it in details but it would be standard to adjust figures in this way. The paper talks about such adjustments being required for the meta-analysis. It would be fairly flawed if it didn't.

There are other useful findings, such that there was no significant change in BMI for any of the grouops, so a low-carb diet doesn't help reduce weight.


Lastly, , no the paper was no funded by Novartis and Zogenix. It explicitly states the research was independent of that funding, with all funding coming from National Institutes of Health.

 

[D.P.]

39% of daily calories from carbs is considered low carb in this study! That's not even close to low carb, let alone keto!

The recommended ratio is about 50-60%, higher if you exercise regularly. 39% is very low, that constituted a lot of fat and protein which your body just does not need in such quantities.

Regardleslly of that, 39% was just used for the categorization. The graph shows you the results for even lower carb ratios. The mortality rate shoots up.
At 39% carbs hazard ratio is 20% higher than 50% carbs.
At only 20% carbs the hazard ratio is over 50% higher.

that is, if you eat only 20% of energy from carbs, your chance of dying in any particular year is 50% higher than a balanced higher carb diet.

 

[D.P.]

Here is another recent study

https://www.escardio.org/The-ESC/Pr...ydrate-diets-are-unsafe-and-should-be-avoided