"Ladder" DACs only good if expensive??

mistersprinkles · 6 Dec 2017 at 00:24

I was going to get a Schiit Modi multibit and then I was told by my rich audio snob friend that ladder DACs sound crappy unless they are super pricey and broke SOB's such as myself should stick to Delta-Sigma.

Is there any truth to this?

rids57 · 6 Dec 2017 at 00:48

None whatsoever, The Schiit and iFi DACs both use chips, which contain all those resistors, which enables the accuracy at a lower cost. The Modi Multibit is on a par with the Bifrost Multibit, the only real difference (until recently) is the Bifrost has a better quality built in power supply and of course it is modular (more recent Bifrosts have added the USB 5 chipset, which gives them added value). Both use the same chip, which is a slightly lower end version of the one used in the Yggdrasil, which is considered one of the best ladder DACs on the market.

A possible reason that some people may not rate them is if they plug them in, turn them on and then listen they will sound pretty average at best. They need to be fully warmed up before listening, in the case of the Modi, that can be anything from 6 hours to 24, while the Yggdrasil can take up to a week. This is because the ladder DAC chipset or in the silly money ones, individual resistors, have a working temperature range and if they are below the operating temp then they will not work properly as the resistor values go out of balance. So the idea is, let them warm up and then leave them on permanently - my Mimby actually runs warmer than my Magni 3.

See if you can get a listen to one somewhere, only your own ears will be able to tell you what you need.

dt97583 · 6 Dec 2017 at 00:55

rids57 said:
So the idea is, let them warm up and then leave them on permanently

A quote from Nick T @ Schiit Tech

The DAC we recommend leaving on.

DACs more than amps benefit from being at a constant stable temperature, they also heat up slower.

mistersprinkles · 6 Dec 2017 at 02:23

Thanks for the tips guys

Kei · 8 Dec 2017 at 19:49

Nowt wrong with any dac topology if it's implemented correctly. Like vinyl vs CD, there is no "better", just different. Whether or not it's audibly different is up to you.

Here are just a few of the dacs that I have used:-
PCM-67U - hybrid interpolative (ladder and sigma delta combined)
PCM-1702 - Ladder
PCM-1792 - Sigma delta
TDA1541A - Ladder
SAA7350 - Sigma Delta

Personally, I came to the conclusion that the differences between all of them were so small that they were simply too difficult to detect by ear. This was tested across a variety of amps, speakers, rooms and headphones. The only thing I learned during my testing of both dacs and op-amps was that my left and right ears have different sensitivities to certain frequencies in the 2-5KHz region. The most imperfect part of any system is you, the listener. That's simply because it's impossible to remove the influence your mind has and how it can actually deceive you into hearing things that aren't even there. (The McGurk Effect is a prime example) The next trouble maker would be the listening room followed by the speakers.

As to the discrete vs IC argument, the IC is technically the superior method as it's generally a lot less susceptible to external factors like temperature and EM noise. Audiophiles just love discrete though, another good example being burson opamps. Resistor temperature coefficient and the tolerance will tell you how far out of spec it can get and how extreme the temperature swing will need to be to really make a big difference. The network built into an IC won't be anywhere near as susceptible to this problem due to it's size and the fact that it will run warm due to the density of the components.

rids57 · 8 Dec 2017 at 19:57

I made the mistake of listening to my Modi Multibit as soon as it was delivered, which was on a fairly chilly day, so when I first listened it was even below room temperature and it sounded bloody awful. It was interesting to hear it getting better and better as it warmed up.

Probably the one of the biggest aspects of characterising a DAC's sound is what you are comparing it to. In my case it immediately replaced a Schiit Modi (ver.1) and the difference was quite pronounced.

Doug2507 · 10 Dec 2017 at 00:22

MSB. Will blow any other DAC out of the water.

rids57 · 10 Dec 2017 at 01:03

Doug2507 said:
MSB. Will blow any other DAC out of the water.

In a lot of cases it would probably be cheaper to hire the band for the night

Undesirable · 10 Dec 2017 at 16:04

My Modi crackles once when Windows is starting up (USB initializing), and also when it plays sound for the first time; at the very beginning of the audio there's a crackle. That's the only thing I don't like about it.

Rroff · 10 Dec 2017 at 16:09

Undesirable said:
My Modi crackles once when Windows is starting up (USB initializing), and also when it plays sound for the first time; at the very beginning of the audio there's a crackle. That's the only thing I don't like about it.

Seems to be the way a lot of DACs are going - hate it - several devices using Realtek audio implementations do it due to the power management or something its just horrid.

IMO for the general consumer through to enthusiast then Sigma delta approach is better - Ladder DACs will appeal more to people who know what they are doing though in the case of the 1702, etc. where they use interpolation between twin arrays to offset the normal thermal issues, etc. it is more transparent.