Latest immigration figures.

[Mr Jack]

Wages have rose massively in the last decade, all those news reports daily of dropping living standards were just propaganda.

What on earth are you talking about? Wages have grown by less than inflation in almost every month since the crash. Even before the crash median earnings were pretty stagnant and even this hides what is really going on because the distribution of wages has been steadily shifting to greater inequality.

Between 1979 and 2007, the wages of low skill but vital workers such as hospital porters declined by around 25% in real terms. During the long growth years produced by the last Labour government from 1997 to 2007, 99.3% of the population of the UK saw their real income increase by less than mean incomes increased - 99.3%!

 

[arknor]

What on earth are you talking about? Wages have grown by less than inflation in almost every month since the crash. Even before the crash median earnings were pretty stagnant and even this hides what is really going on because the distribution of wages has been steadily shifting to greater inequality.

Between 1979 and 2007, the wages of low skill but vital workers such as hospital porters declined by around 25% in real terms. During the long growth years produced by the last Labour government from 1997 to 2007, 99.3% of the population of the UK saw their real income increase by less than mean incomes increased - 99.3%!

I sense he was being sarcastic

I'd like to know before mass immigration the percent of 0 hour contracts compared to after

 

[V F]

In my view immigration will change the face of british cities. People are tribal and have a tendency to group up with what they find familiar. Once the word gets out that X city has lots of romanians or polish for example. Eventually the shops will be romanian and the restaurants will be romanian and you walk around and the signs are all romanian. This has already happened in some towns. Southampton now is so full with foreigners that its completely different than what it was when i lived there 10 years ago. Its history as a british town will be forgotten by the foreigners, the english that are left will eventually move away when they don't identify with the town any more.

So its all good and well to go and on about multiculturalism but in reality that is not what occurs. The only culture that ends up getting diluted is the host culture, all the foreigners bring their culture with them.

You mean just like England has created little England in Spain?

 

[Orionaut]

You mean just like England has created little England in Spain?

Indeed so, but I would hope that you would be able to appreciate the vast difference between communities of elderly retired ex-pats and younger migrants who will go on to have large families and whose children will also go on to have large families and so on!

 

[V F]

Yes of course but to some extent it is still similar. Not as extreme as Bradford and other places.

 

[Freakbro]

Indeed so, but I would hope that you would be able to appreciate the vast difference between communities of elderly retired ex-pats and younger migrants who will go on to have large families and whose children will also go on to have large families and so on!

Yes, the younger migrants are economically active and provide a positive economic benefit, whereas the elderly retired expats are economically inactive and a drain on the local health care system as they require far more health support

 

[V F]

There is that big brush again.

 

[scorza]

Yes, the younger migrants are economically active and provide a positive economic benefit, whereas the elderly retired expats are economically inactive and a drain on the local health care system as they require far more health support

So why do you think the Spanish don't seem to mind British ex-pats migrating to their country in retirement, whereas young, economically active migrants cause discomfort in whatever country they go to in large numbers?

 

[Danthus]

Yes, the younger migrants are economically active and provide a positive economic benefit, whereas the elderly retired expats are economically inactive and a drain on the local health care system as they require far more health support

Do they provide an economic benefit to someone who earns the National Minimum Wage?

 

[dlite]

So why do you think the Spanish don't seem to mind British ex-pats migrating to their country in retirement, whereas young, economically active migrants cause discomfort in whatever country they go to in large numbers?

What makes you think they don't mind?

I just asked my wife who is Spanish and she said that yes, they actually do mind that people in their 60's and 70's come to take advantage of the generous healthcare system without contributing much at all to the local public budgets that fund the systems.

Though, she also said that they have bigger problems as that, so it is not the most discussed thing in the press.

 

[scorza]

What makes you think they don't mind?

I just asked my wife who is Spanish and she said that yes, they actually do mind that people in their 60's and 70's come to take advantage of the generous healthcare system without contributing much at all to the local public budgets that fund the systems.

Though, she also said that they have bigger problems as that, so it is not the most discussed thing in the press.

Why do the Spanish keep building properties that are exclusively for the ex-pat market then?

As EU citizens British ex-pats in Spain are entitled to the same level of healthcare as Spanish nationals - just like Spanish nationals who live in the UK are free to use the NHS. Of course, if Spain wanted to say that non-Spanish should contribute to the running of their healthcare system than I would say they should have that right, all countries should be free to run their affairs as they see fit.

 

[dlite]

Why do the Spanish keep building properties that are exclusively for the ex-pat market then?

If I had to take a guess, Spain (as a country / government) doesn't build housing at all, or at least it doesn't build other than some social housing.

It is individuals / real estate development companies that build and sell to whoever they want to. And I don't think that government should be given too much power to stop people from doing such things. As long as reasonable building and local zoning regulations are followed etc..

And you will be having very hard time convincing Spanish people that their government should have the power to stop people from doing this.

I guess the final conclusion from of all this is that universal healthcare or universal social securities don't really work when the borders are effectively open.

edit: I think this applies in UK as well. A lot of people who complain about immigrants actually work in construction / have BTL and actively benefit from renting/selling/building for immigrants.

 

[phil675]

Estimated 'refugees' coming to Germany this year has been amended from 800,000 to 1,000,000. So the real number is probably much higher.

 

[Freakbro]

So why do you think the Spanish don't seem to mind British ex-pats migrating to their country in retirement, whereas young, economically active migrants cause discomfort in whatever country they go to in large numbers?

dlite has answered that question, they do mind and I have seen reported protests to that fact as well.

Do they provide an economic benefit to someone who earns the National Minimum Wage?

I guess so, as they are helping fund the Tax Credits the person on NMW would be claiming.

Problem is you can't always muddy the waters with individual examples when looking at national policy. There are always going to be individual winners and losers, but it's what's the best benefit overall that counts. Unless you're one of the losers, then I get it, it sucks.

 

[Danthus]

I guess so, as they are helping fund the Tax Credits the person on NMW would be claiming.

Problem is you can't always muddy the waters with individual examples when looking at national policy. There are always going to be individual winners and losers, but it's what's the best benefit overall that counts. Unless you're one of the losers, then I get it, it sucks.

But most immigrant are in low paid, manual labour work, they themselves claim benefits.

 

[scorza]

dlite has answered that question, they do mind and I have seen reported protests to that fact as well.

Well it's tough **** on them then isn't it while Spain is in the EU. EU trumps the democratic wishes of a country. Spain has been welcoming British ex-pats long before the EU said they had to though.

If I had to take a guess, Spain (as a country / government) doesn't build housing at all, or at least it doesn't build other than some social housing.

It is individuals / real estate development companies that build and sell to whoever they want to. And I don't think that government should be given too much power to stop people from doing such things. As long as reasonable building and local zoning regulations are followed etc..

And you will be having very hard time convincing Spanish people that their government should have the power to stop people from doing this.

I guess the final conclusion from of all this is that universal healthcare or universal social securities don't really work when the borders are effectively open.

edit: I think this applies in UK as well. A lot of people who complain about immigrants actually work in construction / have BTL and actively benefit from renting/selling/building for immigrants.

The government might not be building them but it gives approval for them by way of planning permission (at least in theory anyway).

 

[Freakbro]

But most immigrant are in low paid, manual labour work, they themselves claim benefits.

They can, but again, if the overall effect is positive to the economy then it is self funding?

Also, on average the immigrants are educated to a higher standard than the natives, so they don't always stay in low paid work. They move up the ladder/start their own business etc - just like everyone says you should do if in a crappy job

Don't get me wrong, I see plenty of eastern european knuckle dragging neanderthals around here who work on the land and always will, but I also know of plenty consultants, office workers, business owners who are eastern european and climbing their personal ladders.

 

[Freakbro]

Well it's tough **** on them then isn't it while Spain is in the EU. EU trumps the democratic wishes of a country. Spain has been welcoming British ex-pats long before the EU said they had to though.

Yea, and through the good times no-one cares, just like they didn't here. It's only in the tough times when money gets tight (only for the poorest) that people like to have scapegoats to point the finger at and blame.

The government might not be building them but it gives approval for them by way of planning permission (at least in theory anyway).

I'm not sure we should be holding the Spanish local government planning departments up to any form of scrutiny or assumption of motives

 

[dlite]

Well it's tough **** on them then isn't it while Spain is in the EU. EU trumps the democratic wishes of a country. Spain has been welcoming British ex-pats long before the EU said they had to though.



The government might not be building them but it gives approval for them by way of planning permission (at least in theory anyway).

Why wouldn't they welcome people? Spain is a huge country and there is plenty of sunshine for everyone down there. And tourists (elderly or otherwise) still bring in a lot of business for the cash strapped south.

I'm 100% sure that there are better ways of funding few extra hip replacement surgeries compared to closing ones borders or stopping people from building holiday homes.

Tiny modification to the healthcare funding system, maybe by forging a deal with UK government where UK funds part of the expensive operations would probably solve issues without preventing Brits and Spanish people from getting what they want (retiring in the sun for the former & development to the tourist sector for the later).

Personally I'd even go further and advocate for a EU-wide healthcare balancing system where let's say ~10% every country's healthcare budget goes to EU and then EU divides this money back to countries according to the number of cross-border patients they are servicing. Or something along these lines, I'm sure their bureaucrats can make it a tad more complex system just to ensure that more bureaucrats are needed in next decade as well, but the idea still stands.

If this kind of system would be tuned properly it could even convince people to go "healthcare shopping" to countries where the services are provided most efficiently reducing overall costs and increasing the healthcare outcomes.

People coming from outside of EU are a different thing, though unlike the 60+ retirees, the demographics are much more favourable allowing at least in theory these people to contribute to the local economy by working.


edit: the sentiment that I read from your posts is that Immigration is the newest incarnation of absolute evil and closing the borders is the only sensible thing and that this magical act would solve all issues in UK. I don't quite understand the logical thinking here...