Latest Info & Discussion : PS3 3DTV Features

Mr Latte · 9 Mar 2010 at 15:53

This thread is to look at whats been hapenning regards the PS3 and "Stereoscopic Gaming" and how PS3 in gaming terms will manage to accomplish a new experience in the home! I will include some FACTS as known so far but it is only recently actual information regards the PS3 and how it achieves this and indeed what is required to use it.

New Meaning To - "Only On Playstation"

Make.Believe

Sony not content with pushing 3DTV in Blu Ray and PS3 games seem to be linking 3DTV with their "PS3 Eye" using "Headtracking" and also their upcoming "3D Motion Controller". It looks like the PS3 will be the only platform offering this unique experience in the home which really will offer an experience I guess similar to "Virtual Reality" showcased so much in the 90s. Will this give Sony a leading edge in the industry? Will games make good use of these technologies and you as the consumer will you buy into it?

3D Stereo Vision / 3D Body Motion Control / 3D Head Tracking /
Thats quite a leap in gaming terms to happen all at once but thats whats coming in 2010 and we can begin to see now why Sony have said PS3 could have a 10 year cycle. Of course great technology requires great games but E3 is likely to offer much more details on upcoming games, unnanounced titles which will incorporate these technologies.

Sony are actually the largest supporters of 3D and will also be releasing 3D compatible laptops, cameras as well as of course PS3 and Blu Ray players. Further evidence 3D is here to stay for quite sometime.

Link to Further Sony 3DTV Info

Link To Sony 3DTV Products & Hardware

The 3D Story
3D is the buzz word at the moment and many see it as a gimmick and it gets as much criticisim as it does acclaim. However many arent looking into the future and seem to be judging it on past 3D hardware/products. Even with this people are still going in their millions to watch 3D movies and although sales will be slow at the start 3D hardware for the home will have a marketplace.
It also seems some people dont like or really get the 3D effect while others including myself really enjoy it including at the cinema in recent movies. Of course its not for everyone and not to be used to watch everything.

Of course their are issues and arguments.
For many the glasses is an issue and unfortunately currently thats not going to change and yes you need a New TV as well.
Some people are quite clear to announce they are not interested enough to spend the money but people lets remember 1080p Tvs once cost almost £4000 and 3D like every other format will quickly grow in content and drop in price. Eventually the content will be there including games and as a feature it will become standard on many models of Tvs.

Industry Support
One thing is decided though that every major manufacturer and major movie studio is looking to produce hardware/content for the next several years. Sony seem intent on taking the crown for 3D gaming on consoles and be a large part of its growth and success.

3D Glasses
For the home "Shutter Technology" glasses will become the norm and these will operate at 60Hz per eye on a 120Hz display. These offer a superior 3D quality over "Passive" glasses used at cinemas and bars incorporating the Sky 3D system.

Mr Latte · 9 Mar 2010 at 15:55

Agreed HDMI Standard
PS3 3D Utilises the newly agreed industry standard for "3D Packet Data" which can be used on HDMI 1.3 and the new HDMI 1.4 hardware and displays.
Upto now their was no agreed standard and various hardware used various methods of creating 3D.

3D Via HDMI Frame Packing Structure
The 3D support of 1.4 supports up to 1080p resolution and structures including: full side-by-side, half side-by-side, frame packing, field alternative, line alternative, left + depth, left + depth +
gfx + gfx depth.

For displays to work with HDMI 1.4 the display device must support all mandatory 3D formats.
As for source devices it must support at least one of the mandatory 3D formats. The mandatory 3D formats include:

Mandatory 3D Formats

•For movie content:
•Frame Packing
•1080p @ 23.98/24Hz

•For game content:
•Frame Packing
•720p @ 50 or 59.94/60Hz

•For broadcast content:

•Side-by-Side Horizontal
•1080i @ 50 or 59.94/60Hz

•Top-and-Bottom
•720p @ 50 or 59.94/60Hz
•1080p @ 23.97/24Hz

Implementing the mandatory formats of the HDMI Specification facilitates interoperability among devices, allowing devices to speak a common 3D language when transmitting and receiving 3D content.

Mandatory requirements for devices implementing 3D formats are:

•Displays – must support all mandatory formats.
•Sources – must support at least one mandatory format.
•Repeaters - must be able to pass through all mandatory formats

Therefore now that an industry standard has been agreed for 3D via HDMI with hardware and content suppliers means this will avoid confusion and ensure compatibility.

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What About Recent 3DTV Games Like Avatar on X360 or PS3?
X360 and indeed some PS3 games used 3D but it was inferior and relied on interlacing which reduces the image quality by using 1/2 resolutions.
Additionally some games had support for various 3D hardware so setup wasnt as easy as it could be.

Avatar game as an example allowed upto 5 different 3D methods that the user had to manually set depending on whatever type of 3D display/glasses they had. The current 3D has been achieved by transmitting the image using the Texas Instrument DLP3D checkerboard pattern or an interlaced image for interlaced display.

Basically the interlaced method allowed the L/R eye information to be split in two and this used the same bandwidth working within HDMI 1.2 limations. This however doesnt use the full resolution but combines both fields using half the resolution available. As such this half resolution, "interlaced" method is similar to how 3D will be used with SKY 3D again limited by bandwidth and HDMI 1.2

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Facts Of PS3 3DTV Gaming.
Firstly we will not have 1080p 3D this generation on consoles.
Even if a game like "Wipeout" supported 1080p resolutions in 3DTV form this will not be the case.
The standard is set for Dual 720p @ 120Hz

Upto Dual 720p Native resolution in games is supported
Games will be 60Hz each eye = 120Hz
Game code for the games is needed to be rewritten to utilise the hardware
Individual 3D Patches for current games is unlikely
New 3D Specific releases are expected
Games should auto detect the 3D/TV
PS3 will be compatible with other brands of 3DTVs not just Sony models

PS3 3DTV Games Already Demonstrated
Take note that Sony will be wanting to use popular franchises to promote 3D gaming.
All of the below tech videos are from games that sell very well and many of the titles are owned by studios Sony controls.

GT5 was the first title shown to use this technology in 2009 and now actually seems to be Sonys leading title for 3DTV.
It has been shown in playable form at various trade shows and recently at CES in Jan 2010. Rumours are that GT5 will be one of the main titles to push the 3DTV sales as the game is also Sonys most profitable franchise.

Games Demonstrated:

GT5 Prologue
Motorstorm
Wipeout
Killzone 2
Little Big Planet
Baseball

Ive searched many forums and games sites and in general the comments are mostly productive for the games in 3D. However just as no different to comments you would find regards peoples experience and opinions of "Avatar" in the cinema the opinions of people for 3D gamming vary from not very good to really good. I myself dont know what to believe or expect but Im certainly curious and want to buy or believe in the technology and in many cases the 3D effects can be really good but part of that comes down to the individuals ability in processing 3D imagary it seems...

Announced 3D Specific Titles
So far I can only find word of two games being officially announced/confirmed.
These are GT5 & Super Stardust.

Many more games will be coming and it is likely those demonstrated as tech demos will appear if not in re-incarnated versions of the original games in 3D but possibly as new titles. Would it be unbelievable to expect new Wipeout or Motorstorm titles to offer 3D. Sony is likely to have several games to be launched this year to make use of it and with 3DTV releasing these games and the firmware update have been reported to in the past make a summer 2010 release.

Mr Latte · 9 Mar 2010 at 15:58

How Can PS3 Suddenly Achieve This Extra Rendering Performance?
Originally an announcement was made in 2009 to say that almost all PS3 games would be playable in 3D.
All that was needed was the relevant hardware and a PS3 Firmware patch.

That gave the impression that the 3D somehow could be created from originally released games and the update magically made games 3D.
It was a mystery at the time and Sony were not explaining how it was going to be implemented. Today we know of several upcoming 3DTV models mainly from Samsung/Sony/LG that will offer a 2D-3D conversion in realtime but this may be a gimmick with mixed results.

With PS3 it does not offer a software version of such hardware those TVs will employ but the 3D method used will be from true 3D effects created by the games designers during the development of the game and not some overlayed 3D effect applied to normal games.

A benifit of this is how game developers just like movie producers will now have control of how to implement the 3D effects how they want. This could be for "depth of field" or indeed the "pop out" techniques used as each will have to be implemented into the games.
Games will now realistically be able to demonstrate great heights, distances and produce a new sensation of enjoyment giving a screen depth. At the same time explosions, bullets and passing scenary can be used to heighten excitment and create the illusion of popping out of the screen.

It has been commented regards development of 3D for Super Stardust that they achieved 720p 120HZ by "moving vertex processing from GPU to SPU and merging as many objects as possible to one drawcall" In a sense I suppose refining the abilities of the hardware but in general every new 3D game will require optimised programming methods and make full use of the available hardware. This remember is quite a feat to be achieved and X360 will not be capable of offering this level of quality in 3D gaming. Does this now put Sony in a position to dominate console sales, well possibly thats if 3D is to catch on.

Personal Thoughts
Okay so it was considered that their was no way PS3 could offer 60 FPS in games and effectively somehow manage to also render a 2nd frame for 3D vision. People will now start thinking well hold on if it can do dual 720p then why cant we have FULL HD 1080p on normal HDTVs.

From research Ive been doing all is not what it seems even with regards "Super Stardust" which we will use as an example.

Difference in 1080p & Full HD
1080p in games is quite often misleading to an extent but again its a standard referring to the vertical resolution.
Generally people believe 1080p to be full 1920x1080 pixels which is used in the TV/Movie industry as a video format and matches the pixel resolution of 1080p HDTVs.

However 1080p games in many cases have been 1280x1080 resolution so require scaling on the horizontal plane.
They technically still are 1080 lines vertically and thats why they are still referred to as such.
As annoying as this is to some additionally in the past many games even on other platforms such as the X360 were below 720p resolution (Halo 3 @ 1152x640)
Game developers reduce the resolution to achieve good or better framerates, its simple as the programming limatations at the time and the hardware could not offer full resolution and meet framerate targets.

Super Stardust 1080p Vs 3D 720p
Compromising of a 1280x1080 resolution lets compare that to dual 1280x720 resolution that the developer confrims is working.
Lets compare pixel numbers here:

Standard 720p Game
1280x720 = 921600

Typical 1080p PS3 Game
1280x1080 = 1382400

Full 1080p Standard
1920x1080 = 2073600

Dual Rendered 720p Game
2560x1440 = 3686400

How does PS3 go from rendering 1382400 pixels in the 1280x1080 orignal format to rendering 3686400 = 2304000 difference.
Now looking at those numbers its impossible to imagine the PS3 somehow can even with new programming and clever usage of the GPU/SPU manage such a feat.
In pixels its way too big of a difference to just calculate 720p resolutions and compare pixel counts, right?
As noted above if PS3 can do Dual 720p in 3D how the heck cant it do full HD 1080p (1920x1080) as thats a lot less pixels?

My Take On What Happens
So of course clever things will be at work to achieve the 3D rendered image.
Whilst I do not for one moment fully understand it I know that options are used to create the required effect but not having a complete 2X rendering demand on the system for the dual 720p.
I believe with Stereoscopic 3D the second offset/camera need to create 3D only requires the additional rendering in each scene that utilises the 3D effect. Therefore if most of that scene is static it is duplicated from the buffer thats already rendered. So basically you have to render one full 720p scene and only the additional moving pixels for the 3D scene?
A similar method is used in creating MPEG compression and even Blu Ray aparently uses similar techniques on its dual 1080p 3D format.

The benifit of this over interlaced 3D games we have had before is that we get fully progressive dual 720p screen images with a total refresh rate of 120Hz.
3D glasses will then offer 60Hz per eye and create a smooth 3D image.

Not All Games May Be Native Resolution In 3D
As mentioned above in the past we have had games appearing that did not offer the expected native resolutions due to processing demands and required framerates in games.
Just as in how 1080p games are not full HD resolution I would assume that some 3D games could also us this tactic therefore not fully render in native 720p resolution.
This of course will reduce the demands on the PS3 hardware by reducing the native resolution to allow it to maintain the required framerate.
Superstardust however by its developers has been announced as native 720p @120HZ (60Hz each eye) but that DOES NOT mean all 3D games will run in a native resolution of 720p.

If indeed some games do require the resolution to be dropped then the PS3 will be able to upscale the native rendered resolution to 720p of course being the required "HDMI 3D Gaming Standard" This then in turn would be scaled again to 1080p resolution of the 3DTV used.

What About 30fps & 60fps Games?
Little information seems available regards a games framerate and what refresh rate the 3DTV operates at.
I would assume the technology allows for scaling just as many of todays games offer 30fps but run at 60Hz display output.
Perhaps repeated/double frames are shown for each sequence to sync with a 60Hz output and in turn this same principle could be applied for 3D.
Its fair then to assume if a game uses 30fps it could still operate with 30fps but be viewed in 3D @ 120Hz.
This is important as it is likely that the "First Person Shooter" genre of games is going to offer a stereoscopic 3D title.

E3 June 2010 Sony Will Show 3DTV Gaming
Sony are expected to make big presentations regards the whole 3DTV launch and PS3 Updates.

What games should we expect, perhaps Resistance 3 or a new Killzone, what about GT5? Personally Id be amazed if several titles are not confirmed and demonstrated including a 3D first person shooter.
Already their are rumours of a Killzone 3 appearing which may even support the PS3 motion controller as well but lets wait rather than speculate to much into that.

When Will This Be Available What Screen Sizes & How Much?
Sonys own 3DTVs are due in June onwards and it is likely the 3D Patch will appear for the 3D gaming at that time. Various brands of 3DTVs are beginning to appear in the UK as early as April/May.

32" & Above
The smallest 3DTV I am aware of will be from Phillips in a 32" 1080p model.
This could be a good model for a bedroom or more for gaming purposes.

Start Saving
Many brands are starting their 3DTV ranges from 40" and prices including glasses for these sizes will probably come in around £1400 but we will have to see how discounts go online.

Sonys own models will be more costly at approx £2000 for their 40" top model LX903 (includes 2x pair of glasses) They are however also offering a 3D Ready model HX903 (requires glasses to be purchased seperately) at approx £1400 RRP. Sonys biggest model is a 60" version of the LX90s range at approx £3500.

Other models from LG / Samsung / Panasonic will likely offer more competitive pricing than Sonys and sizes will be going up to 65" for the Panasonic Plasma. Again at a price expected to be around £3000. However it seems Panasonics 50" Plasma model is going to be coming in at the same price Sony are charging for their 40" LED Model. Sony seem to be going the luxury route.

Seperate/Extra 3DTV Glasses & Compatibility
Some models will come with it seems 2x pair of included glasses.
Glasses that can be purchased seperatly will likely cost approx £100 with some brands charging a little more.

Most models shown seem to rely on infared technology and will be battery based. Brands however are not expected to be compatible with one another. So its unlikely you will be able to use for example Panasonic glasses with a Sony 3DTV.

UPDATES TO FOLLOW

Chris1712 · 9 Mar 2010 at 16:05

Mr Latte said:
PS3 Utilises the newly agreed industry standard for "3D Packet Data" which can be used on HDMI 1.3 and the new HDMI 1.4 hardware and displays.

3D over HDMI Frame Packing Structure
- 1080p @ 24 Hz
- 1080i @ 50/60 Hz
- 720p @ 50/60 Hz

Lots ot post here........

More to be added

1080p24 content is not part of the 3D BluRay spec, so we're back to 3:2 pulldown judder. Great. Ideally it will be added in and tv's will start to take the same spec as 3d cinema projectors, ie 144hz triple flash.

Chances are, frame packing will only be for Bluray 3D on the PS3, it can't suddenly generate twice the frames so will use side-by-side/top-bottom/checkerboard for games. I guess some lower quality (maybe PSN?) games could use frame packing if the graphics are simple enough for the PS3 to render 1080p60.

One More Solo · 9 Mar 2010 at 16:07

Should be an interesting thread, thanks.

Mark1989 · 9 Mar 2010 at 16:09

Aslong as i dont need a new tv for it great as im very happy with my samsung led 7 series However i still havent seen a 3d film it just seems i aint bothered about. Thou the feature may be great untill its at the stage were pretty much everything is 3d i doubt very much ill bother.

Great thread thou =)

Mr Latte · 9 Mar 2010 at 16:09

Chris tvs will get around the 24fps and 120HZ for the glasses.
Its already been demonstrated and the hardware in the TV possibly adds frames.

I wouldnt be too concerned just yet as the Blu Ray forum has been involved with the development of 3DTV standards.

mcwildcard · 9 Mar 2010 at 16:13

Relevant: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/tech-interview-playstation-3d-interview

Chris1712 · 9 Mar 2010 at 16:24

Mr Latte said:
Guys give me a chance to update everything, before commenting and quoting, gees.

Chris tvs will get around the 24fps and 120HZ for the glasses.
Its already been demonstrated and the hardware in the TV adds frames.

I'd like to see them get around the fact that there's no support for 1080p48 stored video for Bluray3D. Its a problem with the 3DBR spec, not the PS3's implementation of it.

EDIT: Scratch that. Upon further investigation it seems nobody knows. Regardless, with a 120hz display its going to be doing 3:2 pulldown on what is really a 48hz signal. Hopefully 240hz sets will appear sooner rather than later.

Mr Latte · 9 Mar 2010 at 16:52

Chris1712 said:
EDIT: Scratch that. Upon further investigation it seems nobody knows. Regardless, with a 120hz display its going to be doing 3:2 pulldown on what is really a 48hz signal. Hopefully 240hz sets will appear sooner rather than later.

Blu Ray Related Only
Panasonics solution with neo PDP

The Tv must display 120HZ to sync with the 3D glasses.
Less than 120HZ (60Hz each eye) is used to reduce eyestrain from the flickering as having glasses at less refresh would cause eyestrain.