Latest sigma foveon cameras

Soldato
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Have you guys been keeping an eye on the foveon tech cameras? they always looked like an interesting tech not needing a AA filter to operate. The latest ones are giving out amazingly detailed images, by the looks of it you'd need a 30+mp ccd sensor to keep up :eek:

The 3 newish ones
sigma dp1 merrill (19mm/2.8 - 28mm eqv)
sigma dp2 merrill (30mm/2.8 - 45mm eqv)
sigma dp3 merrill (50mm/2.8 - 75mm eqv)

Here's the galleries for them
DP1Merrill samplephoto
DP2Merrill samplephoto
DP3Merrill samplephoto

By the looks of it the AF is only ok in good light after firmware updates, they really need to be kept to 400 or less on ISO and only the dodgy sigma software supports them right now (workflow is convert raw to tiff in sigma software then import to something else). But if you could live with that then the image quality for the price is just crazy. From comparisons it's more detailed than the Sony RX1 24mp FF camera and only just looses out to D800e with high end prime lenses. There's some comparisons to MF backs as well where it holds up very well but ultimately can't compete (as you'd expect).

And some reviews, some of these where done with the original firmware so AF is better now.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sigma_dp2m_review.shtml
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2012/...-gorgeous-image-quality-but-slow-and-squeaky/
http://www.ephotozine.com/article/sigma-dp2-merrill-camera-review-19831

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=69796.0
 
I don't know about only just losing out to the D800e... I haven't looked at the full on tests as I'm busy but those samples just look like any other APS-C sensor with a decent lens in front of it.
 
From the below review, it looks like the Sigma really does produce spectacular resolution. Particularly impressive if it's a 1.7x crop.
Tbh, I would have thought Sigma would want to take this technology to medium format. There they would clean up, as it's all about the low ISO IQ.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sigma_dp2m_review.shtml

Sigma left, X100 right.
x100-dp2m.jpg
 
Foveon sensors do have a unique look to their files. When you get it right it has a 3D-like effect, probably down to the great micro-contrast ability.

Popular belief is that the original DP camera's (I own a DP1) produce images similar to 35mm film and the Merrill cameras are like MF.

Can imagine the DP3 Merrill would make a fantastic portrait camera. Been eyeing up DP1/2 Merrills on the used market but ~£700 is a bit rich for something I'd consider a 'toy'.
 
Jesus, I've just had a mess around with one of the jpeg and have to say I'm astonished at the detail....

I looked at this image.
2hz20w7-a_zps21b883ba.jpg


Cropped :eek:
2hz20w7_zps16daa078.jpg
 
Yeah basically they are pretty much sharp at a pixel level and need no extra sharpening. I've never seen anything like this from current crop sensors and maybe only some very high MP shots I've ever downloaded. Apparently they print very well and can easily be doubled in res and still look good so I guess fairly large prints.
 
I don't know about only just losing out to the D800e... I haven't looked at the full on tests as I'm busy but those samples just look like any other APS-C sensor with a decent lens in front of it.

Yeah you really need to check out the sample images yourself to see what they are all about. Hard to believe you can basically buy a full working camera for less than the cost of a prime lens you'd need to mount on a D800e to get a similar level of quality.

Basically if all you shot was static well lit images or used a tripod you could get all three cameras for the price of one D800e body before you've even added on lenses :p I'm in now way saying this is the correct thing to do here though as the cameras have many limitations and quirks.
 
Yeah I guess it could take a lot of R&D investment, CCD tech has so much money chucked at it by all the big players it'd be hard to compete head on.
 
Not convinced just yet. Compare it to the X-Pro1 as that's the only APS-C camera I can think of that doesn't have the AA filter and thus is the only one that's comparable.

I'm not saying it's not producing great samples to be fair, but it's just that I'm not thoroughly convinced that it's the Foveon tech that's causing it as opposed to the lack of an AA filter.

If Sigma made a medium format back with this tech, now that would be interesting. As it is, they don't make the lenses well enough (yet) to produce a separate 35mm system, though they could make a fixed lens 35mm camera potentially as An Expectation suggested.

Maybe we'll see a return to 3rd party bodies like the Fuji S5's and Kodak Canikon bodies if sensor tech keeps developing like this. I can see Canon potentially adopting this as they do have a gap to close to Nikon. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, the Fuji S5 was basically a Nikon D200 with Fuji's own sensor in it, I can't remember what the tech was called but basically the sensor produced a good couple of stops better dynamic range than anything else on the market. I could see Sigma producing a 5D bodied Foveon camera as Canon's D800e rival. That said they could still bring out the rumored 5DX or still-fabled 3D, and those are both more likely given the rumours flying about 46MP...

Actually hold on. The Sigma Merril Foveon's are all advertised at 46MP aren't they? Obviously it's more like 15MP effective resolution because of the sensor design, but do you reckon that could be where the noise about 46MP is actually coming from? Scaling the Foveon sensor up to a full frame body and making an awesome studio camera?

Sigma can't compete in DSLRS with their own mount simply because of the lack of lenses, price and availability issues, but if they team up with Canon on bodies they could both benefit... Canon is unlikely to go for this I guess as they've been content putting out sub-par sensors for the last couple of years and there's a lens fight between Canon and Sigma, but still, it's nice to dream.
 
Yeah I guess it could take a lot of R&D investment, CCD tech has so much money chucked at it by all the big players it'd be hard to compete head on.

Nothing outside of medium format uses CCD any more, pretty much everything is CMOS nowadays, unless I'm mistaken...
 
Yeah it's still better than the x-pro1 and other Fuji cameras, actually it looks like Fuji have put in a patent for Foveon style sensor tech for some future cameras, could be interesting.
 
"It is an understandable problem because in a Bayer sensor there may be, say, 20 million photosites but not all of them are used for luminance information. There are two greens for every red and blue combination and only the greens bare primary responsability for spacial resolution. The reds and blues are primarily for colour information. But, in an X3 sensors the sensors are stacked vertically and so each one contributes to luminance as well as colour information. So, take the new Sigma DP2M. It has a 46 Megapixel sensor according to Sigma. But since two thirds of these lie in the same spacial position as the other third there is no actual net grain in spacial resolution."
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sigma_dp2m_review.shtml

Considering the above. I would guess that as the Foveon photosites capture the full area of the image circle of a lens, that the sensor is 50% less demanding of glass resolution, or that the same glass will have 50% more resolution on a Foveon Vs Bayer design. Also the sensor would thus also be 50% less diffraction limited. This assumes that the Bayer system basically throws away the luminance values of the red and blue photosites.

If the above is correct, then a 35mm Foveon could easily take on a MF bayer back.
 
They also do some SLRs with this type of sensor

Sigma SD1 Merrill

Sigma SD15

General consensus is that the Foveon technology can produce some amazing shots. Ramp up the ISO however and the quality of the image deteriorates.

This explaination at DPreview sums up how it works...

"Obviously the Sigma's defining feature is its 15x3MP Foveon sensor. For those of you who haven't come across the technology before, it uses a fundamentally different method for detecting color than any other camera sensor. Almost all other cameras place a pattern of colored filters in front of their sensors so that each individual photo site is only receives either red, green or blue light. To create a full-color pixel in the final image, clever mathematics is applied to estimate the values of the two unmeasured colors, based on the amount of those colors captured by adjacent photos sites.

Foveon's technology doesn't use filters - instead it uses the fact that different colors of light can penetrate silicon to differing extents. Foveon's chip measures the number of photons captured at three different depths corresponding to how well Red, Green and Blue can penetrate the chip. The main advantage of this is that, unlike other digital cameras, the Sigma measures all three colors at every one of its 15 million photo sites, capturing three times as much color data per-pixel as a conventional sensor. (Hence the company's reference to it being a 46MP camera.)

Because the Foveon sensor captures full color data at each pixel location, it's not susceptible to color moiré - false color patterns that are the result of those clever calculations occasionally getting things wrong, for example with finely-woven fabrics. Traditional Bayer-pattern sensors suppress this by using an optical low pass (or anti-aliasing) filter that slightly blurs the image at the pixel level, reducing the camera's resolution. The Foveon sensor doesn't use an AA filter, and is therefore able to resolve substantially more detail than its pixel count alone might suggest - in principle the SD1 has the potential to produce resolution similar to a 30MP Bayer-type sensor."

Imagine the quality that would be available if they scaled up the pixel density to say the same as the D800 and each site recorded three times the data!
 
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Perhaps, but I think there's another problem in that there's still diffraction limits, and it's very very hard to outresolve a sensor such as the D800e's. Just because the sensor becomes better, doesn't mean the lenses do. I feel that sensors will move towards high resolution, no low-pass filter, bayer designs such as the D7100 or D800e. There's just no need for a Foveon design in terms of raw resolution when bayer sensors are already comfortably out resolving most of the lenses you can put in front of them.

A Foveon 35mm sensor may well be able to capture as much detail as a Bayer design medium format, but no 35mm lenses, at least not ones that will ever be reasonably priced, can give it that sort of detail.
 
Perhaps, but I think there's another problem in that there's still diffraction limits, and it's very very hard to outresolve a sensor such as the D800e's. Just because the sensor becomes better, doesn't mean the lenses do. I feel that sensors will move towards high resolution, no low-pass filter, bayer designs such as the D7100 or D800e. There's just no need for a Foveon design in terms of raw resolution when bayer sensors are already comfortably out resolving most of the lenses you can put in front of them.

A Foveon 35mm sensor may well be able to capture as much detail as a Bayer design medium format, but no 35mm lenses, at least not ones that will ever be reasonably priced, can give it that sort of detail.

Lenses (particularly the centre) often apear 50% sharper on 35mm sensors compared to APSC sensors.. Why?

35mm sensors are around 1 stop less diffraction limited than APSC.. why?

Supposedly (if what luminous landscapes says is correct), Foveon technology can make use of 50% more information (resolution) from then lens. Bayer systems apparently throw away the luminance values from red or blue sites, this basically also throws away information from the lens. Due to this, I don't think the Bayer design is very efficient.
 
Capturing full colour data is the more salient advantage that Foveon tech offers. Yes, Bayer arrays are excellent today, but they're still flawed from a colour standpoint.
 
Probably due to immature tech. Not that long ago, Bayer sensors sucked when you upped the ISO.

It is more of a design issue than immature tech, although obviously big improvements could come about. One of the design issues is that the concept works well on CCD sensors but not so well on CMOS, CCD sensors have well known limits on noise (look at all MF backs).


I have long been interested in alternative sensor technology and very much liked the Foveon concept and hoped we would see CaNikon try something similar. However there are very good reasons why the big names have stuck to a Bayer design. The latest generation Sony and Nikon sensors show how far this design can still be pushed (and yes, Nikon is producing plenty of their own sensors as good as Sony, the D4 sensor, D3 and D3s, the D5200 and D77100 are Toshiba manufactured, the D3200 is not a Sony sensor either).

There is no free lunch in sensor design. On the outside it looks like Foveon is a simple but massive boost in design. A single pixel of a Bayer sensor throws away 2/3rds of the incoming light (assuming uniform white light) before the photons even touch silicon. However, the Foveon sensors are actually much worse. While every pixel can record R, G and B wavelengths, only the blue sensors on the surface can be at full efficiency. The R and G sensors are receiving far fewer photons (red wavelength light does penetrate the silicone substrate further than blue light, the main design principle, but there is still loss of photons at higher levels of the silicon).
The Foveon sensors are actually much less efficient than a Bayer sensor, which is why the noise is so high above base sensitivity. The loss of light is especially bad in low-light environments.


One of the reasons Bayer sensors are doing well going into higher pixel densities is they actually start behaving closer to a Foveon design, but with greater efficiency. If you assume at a given pixel size a Foveon sensor can measure R, G and B, a Bayer design with pixels 3 times smaller can record the same R, G B pixels int he same area. Current demosaicing algorithms still produce a final output with the 3 pixels mapped to a RGB colorspace but one can simple imagine than the 3 measured pixels are used to produce a single output pixel (same concept that Sigma claim a 45MP sensor but leave the output at 15MPx3colors). We can replicate this by simply downsizing the image. When you do that you see the camera like the D800 performs so well, hence the high DXOMark score.


Moreover, if you understand DSP then you will realize that oversampling by a factor of at least 2x at capture time is actually required to fully replicate a source signal. To get the most out of a lens you need to sense at least twice the linear resolution, then you can downsample to produce the optimal resolution image signal. This is actually what hat Nokia smartphone does with the 41MP sensor. It captures at very high resolution, in software combines and filters the data to produce high quality 4-6MP output images.

The downside is that it is harder to maintain the same quantum efficiencies at smaller pixel sizes but so far this has not been a big issue. The D800 is actually a more efficient camera than the D4 (or 1D-X). The D5200 24MP APS_C sensor is currently around the most efficient I believe, despite the highest pixel density. Surprisingly, there are compact cameras that have a similar or higher efficiency. Look at figure 6 in http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/dxomark_sensor_for_benchmarking_cameras2.shtml, the orange line for the latest compact cameras is higher than the blue line for FF DSLRs, these are normalization liens, e..g if you take a compact sensor and scaled it to FF size, and vice versa. From that it is easy to imagine that a a latest gen compact sensor when scaled to FF size will lead to hundreds of MPs but IQ of an appropriately re-sampled image can surpass current FF sensors.


Personally, I don;t see the Foveon technology really going very far since one can simply make a Bayer sensor at a higher density and down-sample to get equal or better results with a simpler and cheaper sensor design.
The bottom line is at low light levels you are fighting for every single photon. Neither of these two technology are completely efficient in this regard throwing out large amounts of light. One concept that can work well and is used in video camera is to use a prism and split the light into R, G and B channels directed towards a dedicated sensor. Not demosaicing, not interpolation, no color filtering, no throwing away photos into dead silicon. The design is fairly standard, the issue is it doesn't really fit within the DSLR format.


Personally I see the future in using more advanced software-ware to combine multiple captures to increase resolution, increase DR and increase noise performance. The basics are already there, e.g. smart phone let you capture panoramic with auto stitching, some cameras have multi-shot HDR modes, some cameras have multi-shot high ISO noise reduction modes. We all know you can take a panoramic photo by taking multiple shots (rotate around lens nodal point preferred) creating very high MP images. Common in astrophotogrpahy is to take multiple exposures and stack them to reduce noise, I think Sony cameras offer a similar option these days. Other neat things you can do is take multiple shots of say a famous building that unfortunately has a load of tourists walking all over the front. By taking multiple images you can combine them to remove them from the final output. Seen this done to capture great photos of places that are normally too busy to capture without interference. Then there is even the possibility to generate high-res 3D models from multiple stills.
What we have seen so far in consumer cameras is very basic to what the latest research is producing ( I used to worked closely with people who researched computer vision techniques) and the rate of progress of research is really rapid.
 
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