Let's hope Microsoft doesn't enter RIAA territory.

the-void · 6 Feb 2007 at 20:07

Sorry if this is old news (Thought I would get this out of the way first)

It appears that MS have started criminal proceedings against a Russian school teacher. However the Russian school teacher claims the illegal software was pre installed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6332441.stm

President Putin and Gorbachev have appealed to Bill Gates for him to intervene. However he has declined in this matter.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/05/business/pirate.php

What I do find particularly galling is that didn't MS actually offer to replace counterfeit software for legitimate software if you were genuinely duped into buying counterfeit software. Of was this merely a ruse to get you to confess so they can keep an eye on you.

If think it ill advised of MS to go down the route of the RIAA and start to sue people. Unless of course it thinks it can sue people for using Linux. Perhaps MS needs to rethink it's actions. A good few people are not happy with the "kill" switch in Vista, and if MS start suing people who have merely purchased computers. At the very most the school should be forced to purchase the required licenses. No-one should be facing prison because if it (unless your making a profit solely from pirated software)

Burnsy2023 · 6 Feb 2007 at 20:38

Do you think people will listen to my advice on how to stay legal now?

Burnsy

EDDS · 6 Feb 2007 at 21:18

they deserve to be prosecuted if they have illegal software, no matter if they knew about it or not, they should check.

sswats · 6 Feb 2007 at 21:22

"Mr Gorbachev said that under Russian criminal law the teacher could face "imprisonment in Siberian camps"."

Prosecuted, fine.

Sent to siberian prisons? a bit extreme.

afraser2k · 6 Feb 2007 at 21:26

Just think what they'll do to a certain Russian music site if they're found guilty! :eek:

FatRakoon · 6 Feb 2007 at 21:32

Wow.

Ok, while I understand that MS ( Although trying some pathetic attempt at making others think its not them directly ) are tryign to protect their rights, they are also showing that they are really just money grabbing thieves and no better than the pirates in my eyes on this one.

I certainly hope that more people do indeed step in as this kind of thing makes me sick, ( Massive corporations picking on the litte guys who cost the big companies about a billionth or their sales ) and if it does get to court, wouldnt it just be lovely if the judge is a Linux user?

Dont get me wrong here, I might have missed something out, but the teacher bought those computers for the school didnt he?
So, why is he directly being done? Why not the school? Why not the government? Why not the suppliers? Why is it him? The software was PRE-INSTALLED and in every other country I am sure, this simply would never happen?

MS themselves say that if you tell them where you got the PC from then you can get the licences for free, should the case go to court and there is a successful prosecution... Now this leads me to also wonder... Did the teacher know this, and know about this? It never comes up unless it fails the validation, and if it passes the validation, then how would he know if its hookie or not? It would be interesting to know how he was caught, if indeed caught is the right word, or whether he himself had made inquiries as to whether his copies were legal?

Macro · 7 Feb 2007 at 00:12

You make an awful lot of assumptions based on what is at best a sensationalist article. You then bandy around phrases like Microsoft are theives and pirates with no real knowedge of the situation whatsoever.

Then, having assumed the article is accurate to justify your rant you then conviniently ignore the bit where the man being prosocuted (and we'll assume he know more about the situation than you) himself says

Mr Ponosov told the BBC that Russian prosecutors had brought the case against him and he was unaware of any Microsoft claim against him.

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story (or forum rant)... :rolleyes:

Macabre · 7 Feb 2007 at 00:32

There was an old rumor, think it was true against Microsoft. A coder/cracker named OnezDeep I think it was, anyway he cracked a media codec or something and Microsoft aparantly used this in WinXp you can find it somewhere in the System 32 folder and at the bottom it has OnezDeep of the code.

Can't remember it was like 3 years ago would have to google it.

FatRakoon · 7 Feb 2007 at 05:11

EDDS said:
they deserve to be prosecuted if they have illegal software, no matter if they knew about it or not, they should check.

The vast majority of computer users do accept that their computers, if they bought them, have Windows actually built in to the PC, and therefore, they probably dont realise that Windows can in fact be Illegal.

I have seen this kind of ignorance all too often, although I think ignorance is a strong word, but certainly they assume this.

sswats said:
"Sent to siberian prisons? a bit extreme.

I think so too, but russian / siberian laws are very strict.

Athanor said:
You make an awful lot of assumptions based on what is at best a sensationalist article. You then bandy around phrases like Microsoft are theives and pirates with no real knowedge of the situation whatsoever.

Then, having assumed the article is accurate to justify your rant you then conviniently ignore the bit where the man being prosocuted (and we'll assume he know more about the situation than you) himself says

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story (or forum rant)...

Yes, I also added that I may have missed something... I dont assume the article is completely factual either.

I also know that MS must be involved in this somewhere along the lines, because the teacher is being accused of using Illegal versions of MS software, no one else's. Its not up to a third party to sue the first party over the second parties rights, without the second party being both fully aware and fully involved directly with the procedures against the first party... Unless of course there is a lot more to it than it says in the articles?

Macabre said:
There was an old rumor, think it was true against Microsoft. A coder/cracker named OnezDeep I think it was, anyway he cracked a media codec or something and Microsoft aparantly used this in WinXp you can find it somewhere in the System 32 folder and at the bottom it has OnezDeep of the code.

Can't remember it was like 3 years ago would have to google it.

You are exactly right.

MS have done this a few times. They have taken code, and then patented it before the poor souls who actually wrote it can do anything about it.
Of course there are more rumours than truths flying about but the one you are talkign about is one of the most known ones.

There was another true ( apparently ? - always apparently, but rarely proven ) one, where a group of hackers / programmers, took the Win95 code, reversed it ( converted it back to source ), and pretty much re-wrote the entire thing, filtered out most of the bugs, made it more reliable, faster, leaner etc etc, and it was a fraction of the original size, and they sent the code back to MS.
MS then had them prosecuted for tampering with the code.
Most of this code was then used in Windows 98, by which time MS had aquired the patents for the code.

There was a bit of a to-do about this for a short while, but it was soon hushed up. These coders have not said a thing about it since, and they no longer speak to the media since they have all somehow aquired large salaries from an undisclosed source ( LOL - Ok, I added that bit )

the-void · 7 Feb 2007 at 07:49

Athanor said:
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story (or forum rant)...

I find it disrespectful and ignorant of you to dismiss as just a rant a serious matter such as a massive corporation that makes Billions of £'s in profit every year sending a teacher to Siberian prison for software that came pre installed on the machines he purchased.

Athanor said:
Then, having assumed the article is accurate to justify your rant you then conviniently ignore the bit where the man being prosocuted (and we'll assume he know more about the situation than you) himself says

Assumptions or not. I think the fairest method would be for the school to purchase the license and not have someone sent to prison even if the teacher did knowingly purchase computers with illegal software.

I admit I do not know the full facts of the case. However I am entitled to my opinion based on the facts presented to me (just as any jury is). I do feel that if MS wanted to make an example of someone they should have picked someone other than a teacher in school. I think it is nothing more than bullying tactics. (I imagine that this isn't going to stop the scallies at the local market turning up this Sunday with their hundreds of copied software and DVD's)

I also think it is rather naive of MS to think this is the way to prevent piracy. I imagine if it continues these sort of actions, it will drive legitimate people to Linux as well. Who wants to take a chance with being carted off to the police and threatened with prison if one of your machines fails its WGA validation check or just because you bought some PC's.

the-void · 7 Feb 2007 at 07:52

EDDS said:
they deserve to be prosecuted if they have illegal software, no matter if they knew about it or not, they should check.

Do you check every purchase you make is not actually stolen goods?

Nobody deserves to be prosecuted if they have been a victim themselves of counterfeit products or software, unless of course you have sufficient proof they had full disclosure of the illegitimacy of products prior to the transaction taking place.

digitalis · 7 Feb 2007 at 18:41

Macabre said:
There was an old rumor, think it was true against Microsoft. A coder/cracker named OnezDeep I think it was, anyway he cracked a media codec or something and Microsoft aparantly used this in WinXp you can find it somewhere in the System 32 folder and at the bottom it has OnezDeep of the code.

Can't remember it was like 3 years ago would have to google it.

Yep, it was DeepzOne from Radium - probably meant that the file was mastered using a pirate version of Soundforge 4.5.
You'll find the files here -

Windows\Help\Tours\WindowsMediaPlayer\Audio\Wav

If you open them in Soundforge, or something similar, you can see the Engineer name by going to File > Properties.

Details on it here

S.

Steedie · 7 Feb 2007 at 19:48

Hasnt this always been the case though, with any software

If you use it commercialy or within any organisation, (well pretty much anything other than personal use for an individual) and its cracked then they can prosecute you

I'm not surprised by this, and while it is a bit harsh especially if he didnt know, its nothing new

I doubt that Microsoft would start cracking down on individuals using it on their home PC's or Microsoft are going to find themselves very busy, as lets face it, 90% of PC users have some form of cracked software on their PC, most of which is a Microsoft product

FatRakoon · 7 Feb 2007 at 20:12

Steedie said:
Hasnt this always been the case though, with any software

If you use it commercialy or within any organisation, (well pretty much anything other than personal use for an individual) and its cracked then they can prosecute you

No, not really. Patents etc are relatively new ( I say relatively in a loose way ) in the computer world.

I will give you an example... Years ago, I used to write computer games... Written a fair few and certainly made my money too.

Now, I used to send off my code to software houses, ( Gremlin, Ocean, Elite, Mastertronic- for those who may remember ) and more often than not, it would be refused.

Grnted,. sometimes it wasnt too good, sometimes it was, and whether they accepted, seemed to be fairly random.

Anyway, one day, I was in a shop, looking at some games and I saw somehtign catch my eye... It was one of my games with someone else's name to it?

I immediately got a solicitor involved and at *** time, I didnt have that much of a leg to stand on... Not really. I mean, I had notes and source and so on, I could show this in court, but then, its not all that hard to completely rip a game down to its component parts, and so it would probably not stand up in court as any good evidence, so, we hatched a plan...

When I wrote a game, I would post a copy to my solicitor, this package would have some notes on the outside packaging, to inform the solicitor what it basically contained, and the package would containg COPIES OF EVERYTHING... Source on Tape / Disk ( Yes, back when we had to use Tapes to store code ), print outs of all documentation and as much as we possibly could.

Now, he would know NOT to open the package, and as I posted it to him, it wold be date-stamped .

Anyway, needless to say, 3 months down the line, we found 5 of my games had been released, some under different titles, all under different names.

We had them. We took them to court, andthis is where it all came tumbling down for them... We had the unopened date-stamped parcels containing the Software & Hardware for the gmaes, we had prinouts ( Colour prinouts were not like they are these days as I had a DMP!!! ) but needless to say, we had them banged to rights.

They were forced to pay me all my losses for the games, although they had done this to over 40 games in all, we could only actually prove 6 at this time, but it was enough to really put the kaibosh on their antics.

We agreed on a small sum of money and for me to STFU about it.

I cannot say who it was and I cannot say how much, but it was a happy figure.

So, its not only the little guys who "Nick" bits of code from the big guys... The Big Guys rip entire projects, throw patents at the code, and then the little guys can do diddly-squat about it.

Burnsy2023 · 7 Feb 2007 at 20:20

FatRakoon said:
snip

Software isn't patented, it's copyrighted (automatically in the UK) and has been since before 1988. As long as you can prove it was originally your work (notes logbooks etc) you can enforce this in a court of law.

In theory anyway.

Burnsy

FatRakoon · 7 Feb 2007 at 21:15

LOL yes, thats true... Never heard of the word PATENTED until only recently to be honest... Ok, I have known of the word, but its only with MicroSoft that the word has meant anything to me.

yes, its COPYRIGHT in the UK

But thats just it though... The arguements for me, is that it is fairly easy for anyone with even a basic computing knowledge, to be able to rip out Music, Pictures and only needs a little more, to rip out and re-code the source.

Putting it simply, I could not prove outright that it was my software, so we thought it best that we just caught them on what we had absolute proof of. Once we had them by the curlies we then brought the stuff we could not proove, out.

Burnsy2023 · 7 Feb 2007 at 21:30

FatRakoon said:
Putting it simply, I could not prove outright that it was my software, so we thought it best that we just caught them on what we had absolute proof of. Once we had them by the curlies we then brought the stuff we could not proove, out.

This is why whenever I code anything the planning and everything gets recorded in a logbook. Then I can defend my code if it's been stolen.

Burnsy

FatRakoon · 7 Feb 2007 at 22:47

I know now... This was way back before the PC was a PC and even the Atari / Amiga were only ideas in the tramiels' heads.

We're talking the early 80's now... Well before I had any common sense ( Still waiting on that one )

Burnsy2023 · 7 Feb 2007 at 22:51

FatRakoon said:
I know now... This was way back before the PC was a PC and even the Atari / Amiga were only ideas in the tramiels' heads.

We're talking the early 80's now... Well before I had any common sense ( Still waiting on that one )

It'll come along sooner or later mate. You'll have an epiphany just before you die

Burnsy

Macro · 8 Feb 2007 at 01:33

the-void said:
I find it disrespectful and ignorant of you to dismiss as just a rant a serious matter such as a massive corporation that makes Billions of £'s in profit every year sending a teacher to Siberian prison for software that came pre installed on the machines he purchased.

Good grief, you need a [dramatic] [/dramatic] tag for that!!!!

To paraphrase you I find it ignorant and disrespectful of you to be insulting when quiet clearly you have either not read the two quoted articles or have no interest in facts that could take away from your OMGZZOR!!!111Eleven!! "Micro$oft is *** Debil" rant.

In the articles both the man being prosecuted and MS Russia have said this legal action is not theirs. In fact MS Russia say they had the option to take civil action against the teacher and decided not to in this case

Olga Dergunova, chairman of Microsoft Russia, said: "This case was initiated by Russian authorities under Russian law.

"We did have the option in this case to take up civil action, but decided last year not to do so."

Either you take the article at face value of being true in which case accept this isn't instigated by MS. Or assume the reports could be inaccurate in which case....

Lets face it, you bash MS in any thread you can.

Whilst it's clear that piracy is "a bad thing" if the teacher in question is as innocent of malice as this looks there should be a level of common sense used. Obviously there is the starting point that ignorance is no defence, having said that there is a case that no good would be served prosecuting a genuine mistake.

I suppose the Russian authorities are in a tough position. Chose not to prosecute one case because it's bad press and all of a sudden they open themselves up a valid defence for anything being the offender didn't know/has the sympathy of the public.

It's a tricky situation, much like the one trademark owners find themselves in. If they chose not to defend their tradmark rights in a particular case they risk losing the right to enforce it in any future case, hence lots of big companies taking domain names from good intentioned private web sites.

I'm sure/would hope if the teacher can show he received the software pre insalled, had no way to know it was iffy and point the authorities at the suppliers he'll be fine.