LG C1 and Yamaha YSP 2200 Soundbar - no DTS via ARC

My old tv didn’t support the refresh rates, colour gamut or resolution that the PS5 can output so I lost nothing by plugging my ps5 in to the soundbar. The C1 can support the ps5 which is why I bought it. Plugging the ps5 in to the soundbar is not an option.


I understand, then your choice is more limited without spending more money. You can chose one of these:

* Abandon DTS, change the PS5 audio to Dolby or LPCM as those will pass through the LG TV

* Buy a newer soundbar which has an HDMI 2.1 eARC port and which passes through VRR, 120hz and 10bit HDR

* Switch to using an AVR and freestanding speakers, which also has HDMI2.1 and passes through VRR, 120hz and 10bit HDR


If I was in your shoes, I would just switch to using LPCM 5.1 or LPCM 7.1, then you still have your PS5 and Firestick plugged into the TV and you'll get lossless surround sound and it won't cost you anything
 
I understand, then your choice is more limited without spending more money. You can chose one of these:

* Abandon DTS, change the PS5 audio to Dolby or LPCM as those will pass through the LG TV

* Buy a newer soundbar which has an HDMI 2.1 eARC port and which passes through VRR, 120hz and 10bit HDR

* Switch to using an AVR and freestanding speakers, which also has HDMI2.1 and passes through VRR, 120hz and 10bit HDR


If I was in your shoes, I would just switch to using LPCM 5.1 or LPCM 7.1, then you still have your PS5 and Firestick plugged into the TV and you'll get lossless surround sound and it won't cost you anything

this is such a helpful reply! Thanks. It’s starting to make some sense now. I will go the pcm route for now :) I’ll consider getting a new sound bar in the future.

I’ll also try to draw my room layout and share it in this forum to see if there’s a way to get a proper surround setup. I used to have KEF eggs years ago with a denon avr and the difference in quality between that and my sound bar was night and day. I still remember the bullets flying past me at the start of saving private ryan! I still have all that stuff in the garage as the eggs stopped working when the subwoofer refused to turn on. The avr is obv well out of date now too :)
 
If I was in your shoes, I would just switch to using LPCM 5.1 or LPCM 7.1, then you still have your PS5 and Firestick plugged into the TV and you'll get lossless surround sound and it won't cost you anything

sorry one last question - the surround light I’m getting is orange. This indicates I’m getting something other than dd, dts or lpcm according to the manual snippet I posted. What could it be?
 
The kef eggs wire in to the sub from memory? I do remember thinking that the whole system was dead once the sub died for some reason. I’ll go take a look later today. Placement will be the big headache tbh. It’s a small room. To the left of the sofa is a wall which then moves out in to a bay window about where your knees are. Immediately to the right of the sofa is the doorway to enter the room :(
 
The kef eggs wire in to the sub from memory? I do remember thinking that the whole system was dead once the sub died for some reason. I’ll go take a look later today. Placement will be the big headache tbh. It’s a small room. To the left of the sofa is a wall which then moves out in to a bay window about where your knees are. Immediately to the right of the sofa is the doorway to enter the room :(

The kef eggs can be wired to avr just use bass management
 
sorry one last question - the surround light I’m getting is orange. This indicates I’m getting something other than dd, dts or lpcm according to the manual snippet I posted. What could it be?



wJaimhS


If I was you I would do some reading about discrete versus matrixed surround sound formats. I'll give you a quick primer here, and then you can go do your own research. You also need to factor in what ARC (not eARC) supports.

All the audio formats that make the Yamaha display a blue light are discrete. That means each channel is dedicated only to itself; the centre only carries centre channel info, and the left only carries left channel info, and so on. DD and DTS are also discrete, but unlike DD True HD and DTS-HD the older formats are lossy.

LPCM is short for Linear Pulse Code Modulated audio. This can be mono (unusual to have but still possible), stereo (very common), or any combination of multiple channels all the way up to 7.1. In typical use though we see Stereo (2.0) LPCM and Multichannel LPCM in either 5.1 or 7.1 format depending on the number of channels the TV prog / stream / disc carries.

The number of channel is one facet of LPCM. The other is the data rate (bandwidth) of each of those channels. LPCM can be though of as a lossless container, and you can have anything up to 24-bit 192kHz Hi-Res audio in LPCM format if - and this is a big IF - if the connection format supports it. For example, a domestic Optical connection has enough bandwidth to carry stereo 24-bit 192kHz audio, but not enough bandwidth to cope with 5 channels at say 16-bit 44.1kHz or even lossy 5.1 DD/DTS converted to LPCM.

Why is Optical still relevant in an age of HDMI ARC?

The answer is bandwidth. HDMI ARC (not eARC, just ARC) is built around the same bandwidth limits as Optical. That's why ARC supports DD and DTS and 2.0 LPCM, but is does not support Dolby True-HD or DTS-HD. Likewise, ARC does not support multi-channel LPCM.

The bandwidth limit of ARC is part of the reason why eARC was developed. It raised the limits so that an eARC source connected to an eARC audio system could have Dolby True HD, DTS-HD, and up to 7.1 LPCM. However, both sender (TV) and receiver (audio system) need to be eARC enabled. If one or the other is not then the standard falls to the lowest common denominator which is ARC standard. Just to refresh you, that's 2.0ch LPCM, DD and where supported - but not on LG C1 tellies - DTS.


What is the orange light on the Yamaha showing?

This could indicate a matrixed audio signal.

Before DD and DTS (and before AC3 if anyone is being pedantic) home audio for VHS, broadcast and Laser Disc was limited to stereo. In order to get some form of rear channel action going the clever folk at Dolby Labs pinched and modified an idea they'd been using in cinemas called Dolby Stereo. This was a way to bury (hide) both centre channel and rear channel audio in to a stereo signal in a way that was undetectable with normal stereo gear. This idea of hiding it is referred to as matrixing.

For home use this became Dolby Surround, and so amplifiers started to appear with Dolby Surround Sound decoders. That's a bit of a mouthful and so the name Pro-Logic was born.

Since ARC can't carry multichannel 5.1 LPCM then the best you'll do is 2.0 LPCM. However, that signal can have the matrixed centre and a rear surround channel hidden within it by a process called down conversion in the console. In simple terms, the console takes discrete multichannel audio and makes a stereo + Dolby Surround matrixed signal. (You may need to check your console audio settings here)

This 2.0 stereo LPCM + matrixed signal will then pass from console to TV to sound bar via the HDMI ARC connection. The sound bar can then use Dolby Pro-Logic II Movie mode or Game mode or Music mode to decode it.

What's the catch with matrixed surround sound?

It's not as precise as discrete audio. It lacks the ability to steer sound as cleanly as DD/DTS, but DPL II does at least support left and right channels for the surrounds whereas ordinary DPL was just mono surround. However, there's no dedicated LFE track (the .1 bit of 5.1/7.1) so although your sub will run with the sound bar it's just supplimenting the bass from the main 5 channels. IOW, you lose the extra bass kick of the dedicated LFE track.


Conclusion:

I'm fairly certain that you won't get 5.1 or 7.1 multichannel LPCM via the TV ARC connection. The best you'll get is 2.0 channel stereo LPCM with matrixed Dolby Surround when playing DTS content.










 

wJaimhS


If I was you I would do some reading about discrete versus matrixed surround sound formats. I'll give you a quick primer here, and then you can go do your own research. You also need to factor in what ARC (not eARC) supports.

All the audio formats that make the Yamaha display a blue light are discrete. That means each channel is dedicated only to itself; the centre only carries centre channel info, and the left only carries left channel info, and so on. DD and DTS are also discrete, but unlike DD True HD and DTS-HD the older formats are lossy.

LPCM is short for Linear Pulse Code Modulated audio. This can be mono (unusual to have but still possible), stereo (very common), or any combination of multiple channels all the way up to 7.1. In typical use though we see Stereo (2.0) LPCM and Multichannel LPCM in either 5.1 or 7.1 format depending on the number of channels the TV prog / stream / disc carries.

The number of channel is one facet of LPCM. The other is the data rate (bandwidth) of each of those channels. LPCM can be though of as a lossless container, and you can have anything up to 24-bit 192kHz Hi-Res audio in LPCM format if - and this is a big IF - if the connection format supports it. For example, a domestic Optical connection has enough bandwidth to carry stereo 24-bit 192kHz audio, but not enough bandwidth to cope with 5 channels at say 16-bit 44.1kHz or even lossy 5.1 DD/DTS converted to LPCM.

Why is Optical still relevant in an age of HDMI ARC?

The answer is bandwidth. HDMI ARC (not eARC, just ARC) is built around the same bandwidth limits as Optical. That's why ARC supports DD and DTS and 2.0 LPCM, but is does not support Dolby True-HD or DTS-HD. Likewise, ARC does not support multi-channel LPCM.

The bandwidth limit of ARC is part of the reason why eARC was developed. It raised the limits so that an eARC source connected to an eARC audio system could have Dolby True HD, DTS-HD, and up to 7.1 LPCM. However, both sender (TV) and receiver (audio system) need to be eARC enabled. If one or the other is not then the standard falls to the lowest common denominator which is ARC standard. Just to refresh you, that's 2.0ch LPCM, DD and where supported - but not on LG C1 tellies - DTS.


What is the orange light on the Yamaha showing?

This could indicate a matrixed audio signal.

Before DD and DTS (and before AC3 if anyone is being pedantic) home audio for VHS, broadcast and Laser Disc was limited to stereo. In order to get some form of rear channel action going the clever folk at Dolby Labs pinched and modified an idea they'd been using in cinemas called Dolby Stereo. This was a way to bury (hide) both centre channel and rear channel audio in to a stereo signal in a way that was undetectable with normal stereo gear. This idea of hiding it is referred to as matrixing.

For home use this became Dolby Surround, and so amplifiers started to appear with Dolby Surround Sound decoders. That's a bit of a mouthful and so the name Pro-Logic was born.

Since ARC can't carry multichannel 5.1 LPCM then the best you'll do is 2.0 LPCM. However, that signal can have the matrixed centre and a rear surround channel hidden within it by a process called down conversion in the console. In simple terms, the console takes discrete multichannel audio and makes a stereo + Dolby Surround matrixed signal. (You may need to check your console audio settings here)

This 2.0 stereo LPCM + matrixed signal will then pass from console to TV to sound bar via the HDMI ARC connection. The sound bar can then use Dolby Pro-Logic II Movie mode or Game mode or Music mode to decode it.

What's the catch with matrixed surround sound?

It's not as precise as discrete audio. It lacks the ability to steer sound as cleanly as DD/DTS, but DPL II does at least support left and right channels for the surrounds whereas ordinary DPL was just mono surround. However, there's no dedicated LFE track (the .1 bit of 5.1/7.1) so although your sub will run with the sound bar it's just supplimenting the bass from the main 5 channels. IOW, you lose the extra bass kick of the dedicated LFE track.


Conclusion:

I'm fairly certain that you won't get 5.1 or 7.1 multichannel LPCM via the TV ARC connection. The best you'll get is 2.0 channel stereo LPCM with matrixed Dolby Surround when playing DTS content.










Thanks, interesting reading!

Apologies to thread hijack, but if I have the below is ARC still best option? I have it set to return "direct" which means the amp does the processing I believe? Now reading up on it, my amp is only ARC capable and not EARC

Lg c1 65" ( e arc capable)
Denon 2400 amp (arc capable)
5.1 speakers
 
Thanks, interesting reading!

Apologies to thread hijack, but if I have the below is ARC still best option? I have it set to return "direct" which means the amp does the processing I believe? Now reading up on it, my amp is only ARC capable and not EARC

Lg c1 65" ( e arc capable)
Denon 2400 amp (arc capable)
5.1 speakers

Arc is ok for regular DD/DTS .

It won't pass DTS hd, Dolby master, DTS X or atmos
 
Arc is ok for regular DD/DTS .

It won't pass DTS hd, Dolby master, DTS X or atmos

Ordinary ARC will pass the Dolby Plus version of ATMOS (DD+). This works for broadcast services such as Sky as well as for streaming. For that matter, both Optical and Coaxial have the bandwidth potential to pass DD+, but they are software blocked from doing so as DD+ is restricted to ordinary ARC and eARC connections.

It's certainly true though that ordinary ARC won't pass the 'full fat' version of ATMOS as contained within Dolby True HD and DTS-HD, but that's more to do with being limited to DD/DTS as a maximum.
 
Thanks, interesting reading!

Apologies to thread hijack, but if I have the below is ARC still best option? I have it set to return "direct" which means the amp does the processing I believe? Now reading up on it, my amp is only ARC capable and not EARC

Lg c1 65" ( e arc capable)
Denon 2400 amp (arc capable)
5.1 speakers

You're welcome.

Whether ARC is the best way to connect depends mostly on what you're connecting, and the source signals, and the capabilities of all the gear in use.

Let's say you're using the commercial streaming apps built into the TV such as Netflix, Prime or Disney+. For picture you're going to be looking at the highest quality being 4K with Dolby Vision, but since the apps are built into the TV then that's all self-contained. For sound, streaming apps max out at DD+. HDMI ARC can handle that. You'll get DD 5.1 or DD+ 5.1 with ATMOS via standard ARC which your amp can handle.

For external UHD sources such as streaming boxes / Fire TV sticks / Apple TV etc then you could connect either to the TV or to the amp.

For picture, both amp route or TV route will cope with UHD + Dolby Vision, so there's no issue connecting either way. Sound from streaming apps won't be anything better than DD5.1/ DD+ (Atmos), and so whether you connect direct to the amp or go via the TV and use ARC makes no difference. Either route will get you the same sound quality.

For UHD BD players though the situation changes. You really want them connected to that amp first. That's the only way you'll get the higher-quality audio from BD and UHD BD that discs provide with your current setup. Should you ever change to an amp with eARC then this could change, but you'd also need to change the TV for one that can pass DTS. Your current C1 doesn't do that. For this reason then you should stay with connecting a BD or UHD BD player direct to the amp first.

Console gaming at standard refresh rates could go via the amp, and that then solves the DTS issue if it's a problem for you.

Gaming where the console is running at non-standard frame rates or 120Hz would rely on either the amp handling those or going direct to the TV first and then using ARC for audio but obviously with the DTS issue.
 
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