Liberal Democrats thrash Tories in the Blue Wall

413x · 20 Jun 2021 at 13:36

It's a sad day for Labour when they can't even get the protest vote.

Tony Edwards · 20 Jun 2021 at 13:48

413x said:
It's a sad day for Labour when they can't even get the protest vote.

How? It was not feesable for Labour to go from third to top. The libdems went from second to first.

Turn out was terrible, they will be back in next election.

Hawk Tuah · 20 Jun 2021 at 17:13

inogen said:
Yeah, I think an alliance is the only way it could happen. Starmer doesn't seem radical enough to offer or support one though. I think the Greens would go for it and the Lib Dems have a history of entering coalitions in order to get a single policy/manifesto pledge enacted.

An Alliance would have to include the SNP. You know they'd only agree to it if it meant an Independent Scotland. Which would lead to the Conservatives having an even stronger majority at the following election.

Hagar · 20 Jun 2021 at 19:05

Bug One said:
An Alliance would have to include the SNP. You know they'd only agree to it if it meant an Independent Scotland. Which would lead to the Conservatives having an even stronger majority at the following election.

This, it would be the SNP tail wagging the Labour/Lib dog in every vote whether it affected the Scots or not.

robfosters · 20 Jun 2021 at 19:18

Tony Edwards said:
How? It was not feesable for Labour to go from third to top. The libdems went from second to first.

Turn out was terrible, they will be back in next election.

When you say back, do you mean a Labour win or LD’s back in 3rd?

ltron · 20 Jun 2021 at 21:26

Bug One said:
An Alliance would have to include the SNP. You know they'd only agree to it if it meant an Independent Scotland. Which would lead to the Conservatives having an even stronger majority at the following election.

What if the alliance promised a federal UK with greater devolution to the regions? They could then agree to a referendum on independence but I believe it would almost certainly lose in that situation. A federal UK in my opinion is true cake and eat it, it keeps the benefits of the UK while adding pretty much all the benefits of independence.

Hagar · 20 Jun 2021 at 22:35

robfosters said:
When you say back, do you mean a Labour win or LD’s back in 3rd?

I think that he recognises that the seat will return to blue in a general election.

Tefal · 20 Jun 2021 at 23:16

ltron said:
What if the alliance promised a federal UK with greater devolution to the regions? They could then agree to a referendum on independence but I believe it would almost certainly lose in that situation. A federal UK in my opinion is true cake and eat it, it keeps the benefits of the UK while adding pretty much all the benefits of independence.

Who sets income tax rates federal or state?

Angilion · 20 Jun 2021 at 23:41

ltron said:
What if the alliance promised a federal UK with greater devolution to the regions? They could then agree to a referendum on independence but I believe it would almost certainly lose in that situation. A federal UK in my opinion is true cake and eat it, it keeps the benefits of the UK while adding pretty much all the benefits of independence.

But has the psychological/political status of neither, so I doubt if any party will support it.

ltron · 21 Jun 2021 at 01:11

Angilion said:
But has the psychological/political status of neither, so I doubt if any party will support it.

Actually, Keir Starmer seemed quite sympathetic: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...lls-for-greater-powers-for-scotland-and-wales

Angilion · 21 Jun 2021 at 03:01

ltron said:
Actually, Keir Starmer seemed quite sympathetic: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...lls-for-greater-powers-for-scotland-and-wales

Looks like I was wrong. It would be interesting to see if he retained that position if he was ever in a position to do anything about it.

The SNP's comment on Labour's ability to deliver on that position ("not in a position to deliver pizza") was cutting. And true.

There would still be a UK government, so politically it would be a risky position. Unionists would denounce it as a weakening of the union. Seperatists would continue to blame the UK government/all English people for everything and continue to call for independence. Both those sides would denounce any party that supported it. Loudly. Very loudly. Politically risky.

ltron · 21 Jun 2021 at 12:07

Angilion said:
Looks like I was wrong. It would be interesting to see if he retained that position if he was ever in a position to do anything about it.

The SNP's comment on Labour's ability to deliver on that position ("not in a position to deliver pizza") was cutting. And true.

There would still be a UK government, so politically it would be a risky position. Unionists would denounce it as a weakening of the union. Seperatists would continue to blame the UK government/all English people for everything and continue to call for independence. Both those sides would denounce any party that supported it. Loudly. Very loudly. Politically risky.

I agree it's risky, but doing nothing is I believe even more risky. The Union is under immense strain as things stand and is fraying at the seams. Boris Johnson weakening devolution and seeking to centralise more power for himself as well as Brexit are not helping matters.

ltron · 21 Jun 2021 at 12:56

Tefal said:
Who sets income tax rates federal or state?

I would prefer the regions to have tax raising powers although perhaps with the floor set by Westminster. I don't know whether this is too radical for most people and of course if I were in charge I would be consulting with a broad range of experts to determine what is workable.

Angilion · 21 Jun 2021 at 20:12

ltron said:
I would prefer the regions to have tax raising powers although perhaps with the floor set by Westminster. I don't know whether this is too radical for most people and of course if I were in charge I would be consulting with a broad range of experts to determine what is workable.

Seperate countries with seperate governments and seperate legal systems and seperate tax systems and...is that a union? Or is it seperate countries?

ltron · 21 Jun 2021 at 20:16

Angilion said:
Seperate countries with seperate governments and seperate legal systems and seperate tax systems and...is that a union? Or is it seperate countries?

I didn't mention the legal system and the tax system would not be entirely separate as I said in my previous post.

Angilion · 21 Jun 2021 at 21:01

ltron said:
I didn't mention the legal system and the tax system would not be entirely separate as I said in my previous post.

Scotland already has a seperate legal system. Why wouldn't Wales and NI and England? "I would prefer the regions to have tax raising powers although perhaps with the floor set by Westminster" allows for seperate tax systems.

It's an interesting question - how seperate can parts of a union be before they're not really parts of a union?