Liverpool MD suggests per-team TV deals.

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Ian Ayre warns of the long-term consequences: "If we carry on sharing that international revenue equally, you are disadvantaging us."

He told BBC Radio Merseyside: "It is a debate that needs to be had on a more collaborative basis between the clubs of the Premier League.

"I am certain that if you are a Liverpool fan living in Liverpool, you subscribe to Sky because you support Liverpool, and if you are a Blackburn fan you subscribe to watch Blackburn.

"So it's probably right and proper that the money in this country is shared the way that it is.

"But if you go further afield then it is a myth that the Premier League is huge.

"It is popular but the clubs that are really popular are the cubs like Liverpool, Manchester United and Arsenal.

"We saw that in Malaysia in the summer. We were 5,000 miles from home and we had 80,000 fans watching us play and 40,000 turning up to watch a training session."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15269831.stm

There aren't enough words to describe what a terrible idea I think this is. The Champions League money (and the original Premiership break-away, in fact) has already distorted the playing field to the extent that you have to ***** hundreds of millions of pounds, like Man City, just to get to dine at the top table. God knows how much worse individual TV deals would make it.

Yes, he's right that there are way more Liverpool fans our in the far reaches than Bolton, or Fulham fans. But isn't it enough that they rake in money from shirt sales and these far east tours? Why feel the need to hoard even more money for themselves?

It's sheer short-termism too. At some point, Spanish football fans are probably going to get very bored by the fact that every Barcelona or Real Madrid game (that doesn't involve them playing each other) is a forgone conclusion, and watch less. Is all that money really going to be worth it, just for the two league games that actually matter? I doubt it.

Apparently Man Utd and Chelsea have already distanced themselves from it (though I haven't seen that officially anywhere yet), which is good. I had a horrible feeling this would appeal to them, and Arsenal. I do not want my team's continued success* to come at the financial expense of nearly every other club in the country.

*Insert your own joke about Arsenal complete lack of success recently here.
 
It's sheer short-termism too. At some point, Spanish football fans are probably going to get very bored by the fact that every Barcelona or Real Madrid game (that doesn't involve them playing each other) is a forgone conclusion, and watch less.

Agree with the rest of the post but not this. How many times in the last 20 or so years has a team other than Barca or Real won La Liga? They've dominated for decades yet the interest is still there and they're raking in more than any other sides in Europe in TV money.

I strongly suspect that Ayre knows this idea is a non-starter, 14 teams have to vote in favour yet this idea will massively favour just 2 sides, and is simply hoping for some sort of compromise; something along the lines of the way domestic rights are divided.
 
Agree with the rest of the post but not this. How many times in the last 20 or so years has a team other than Barca or Real won La Liga? They've dominated for decades yet the interest is still there and they're raking in more than any other sides in Europe in TV money.

I strongly suspect that Ayre knows this idea is a non-starter, 14 teams have to vote in favour yet this idea will massively favour just 2 sides, and is simply hoping for some sort of compromise; something along the lines of the way domestic rights are divided.

They're on strike half the time. The Spanish league will go back to collective rights in under 5 years I think. The Italians have gone back, you're nothing without the teams around you.
 
IINM, although Italian rights are sold collectively, the way it's divided up is massively in favour of the top sides. As I said, I suspect that's what Ayre is looking at; 14 clubs won't vote in favour of this but a compromise might be reached where the overseas rights (or at least a % of the money) are divided up based on the number of TV appearances etc. At the moment 100% of the overseas money is split equally.

edit: another theory as to the reason why Ayre has come out with this (now); we're in the middle of negotiations with a few companies over naming rights for a new stadium. Highlighting the global reach of Liverpool as a brand won't do that any harm.
 
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I actually agree completely with Ayre, no ones asking to change domestic TV rights, but regarding international deals they are dramatically under-valued. Part of the reason is silly rules about showing each team x times, they end up wasting a lot of air time being forced to show games no one in their country gives a damn about, devaluing the brand.

Also regarding the Spanish league, afaik the protests are only about a domestic collective TV deal, they will still be free to charge what they want internationally. Considering Sky are paying a huge fee to be able to show the 'top' La Liga games already, Barca and Madrid will still pull away from the rest of the pack, and English clubs will also start to be left behind.

I understand the sentiments to keeping the league fair, but is it any better as it is?
The top clubs will still be the top clubs, and clubs like Villa will always be stuck on the tier below. Granting more funds to the big teams changes what exactly domestically? all it allows them to do is compete with the other European teams.
We've seen from City that realistically it takes 600 million ++ in staff, players and facilities to bridge the gap, "fair" TV deals or not, domestically nothing changes.

-edit-
I should also add, that unless UEFA intervene and prevents the gap emerging and getting wider, it won't be long until there's a top talent gulf in the PL and our 'top' teams end up resembling the likes of Stoke now, physical lump it teams.
And if this is the case - ill be watching La Liga exclusively :p i want to be entertained and see the worlds best talent, which won't be the case inside the PL.

-edit 2!-
If clubs could negotiate their own deals but must share a % to the other clubs, would they still disagree if it potentially meant they end up tripling their current earnings from over-seas tv deals?
 
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Greed, arrogance, hubris, jealousy, etc.

It's such a short-sighted idea that it's almost laughable. It would created a segregated division within the league, and put an end to competition. Clubs that come up from the Championship would automatically be at a distinct disadvantage.
 
Greed, arrogance, hubris, jealousy, etc.

It's such a short-sighted idea that it's almost laughable. It would created a segregated division within the league, and put an end to competition. Clubs that come up from the Championship would automatically be at a distinct disadvantage.

This must be a joke. The league is already segregated beyond repair. Its literally multiple hundreds of millions of pounds difference between the top their and the tier below.
Also - Clubs coming up from the championship wouldn't be at any disadvantage they haven't been subjected to as it is now?
 
I actually agree completely with Ayre, no ones asking to change domestic TV rights, but regarding international deals they are dramatically under-valued. Part of the reason is silly rules about showing each team x times, they end up wasting a lot of air time being forced to show games no one in their country gives a damn about, devaluing the brand.

There are no restrictions on who is shown, how many times they're shown and at what time they're games are shown outside of the UK so that's not the reason for the overseas rights being under-valued.

Ayre's argument is simply that of the ~£1.4bn in overseas TV money, the vast majority of it is being paid because of the attraction of a handful of clubs and therefore they should be the benefactors of it. That view is backed up by the fact that at least 45 different channels around the world will be showing Liverpool - Utd this weekend compared with just 4 channels showing Norwich - Swansea.

The argument against is that this will only make the rich richer and the poor poorer, leading to an even less competitive and therefore a poorer league.

edit: I've said before that I'd be in favour of some sort of system similar to what they have in the US (shared revenue etc) however that would have to be implemented throughout Europe or as Ayre talks about, we won't be able to compete with the likes of Real.
 
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There are no restrictions on who is shown, how many times they're shown and at what time they're games are shown outside of the UK so that's not the reason for the overseas rights being under-valued.

You may be right, but the people discussing it on SSN have been saying otherwise. They basically said that TV companies were willing to pay more for Barca or Madrid, compared to the PL as a whole, because of all the un attractive teams inside the PL which end up on their TV.

Ayre's argument is simply that of the ~£1.4bn in overseas TV money, the vast majority of it is being paid because of the attraction of a handful of clubs and therefore they should be the benefactors of it. That view is backed up by the fact that at least 45 different channels around the world will be showing Liverpool - Utd this weekend compared with just 4 channels showing Norwich - Swansea.
Its also probably responsible over time for the super inflation of wages. Elevated income to the weak because of the success of a few, filtering more money down the league, elevating the wages of Joe Bloggs average means the top players then demand more money, and the cycle repeats.

The argument against is that this will only make the rich richer adn the poor poorer, leading to an even less competitive and therefore a poorer league.

Considering the amount of money it took City to bridge the gap, and the FFP rules which will try to stop this from happening again, you honestly think the league will become less competitive? those who don't benefit from this deal wouldn't be any worse off relative to each other, so whats going to change?
 
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You may be right, but the people discussing it on SSN have been saying otherwise.

If that's what they said then they're wrong. They can show what they like abroad.
Considering the amount of money it took City to bridge the gap, and the FFP rules which will try to stop this from happening again, you honestly think the league will become less competitive? those who don't benefit from this deal wouldn't be any worse off relative to each other, so whats going to change?

Agree that the league is not exactly competitive now and that FFP will make the top of the table even more of a closed shop however individual TV deals would take it a step further and we could go from 4 or 5 clubs being capable of challenging at the top to possibly just 2. Global viewing figures for Liverpool & Utd matches dwarf not just every other side in the Premier League but even the likes of Real and Barca. With the way growth of the overseas market, it wouldn't be unrealistic that some years down the line Liverpool & Utd could be earning £100m's more than others in TV money.

As great as it is to watch the likes of Real and Barca, it is some what pointless in terms of watching a competition. It's not a case of if they're going to win but by how many they'll win by.
 
IINM, although Italian rights are sold collectively, the way it's divided up is massively in favour of the top sides. As I said, I suspect that's what Ayre is looking at; 14 clubs won't vote in favour of this but a compromise might be reached where the overseas rights (or at least a % of the money) are divided up based on the number of TV appearances etc. At the moment 100% of the overseas money is split equally.

edit: another theory as to the reason why Ayre has come out with this (now); we're in the middle of negotiations with a few companies over naming rights for a new stadium. Highlighting the global reach of Liverpool as a brand won't do that any harm.

I might be wrong, but I'm sure the way the money is spread out in Italian football has changed so they all get more or less equal amounts + bonus for positions. I'm sure I heard something about it recently.
 
Italian rights are split 40 (equal) 30 (position) (30) by (fanbase). They're actually they're most valuable rights in Europe on a per annum basis.

It used to be much more weighted to the biggest clubs.
 
Italian rights are split 40 (equal) 30 (position) (30) by (fanbase). They're actually they're most valuable rights in Europe on a per annum basis.

In contrast the domestic rights here are split 50% equally, 25% based on position and 25% based on the number of televised games, however crucially the overseas rights (which are growing massively and will most likely over take the domestic rights as of the next contract) are split 100% equally among the 20 sides.

To make that a bit easier to understand; 60% of Italian TV money is some sort of performance related, compared to ~29% of Premier League money.

The Italian system is 'fairer' than it was but still massively in favour of the bigger sides.
 
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Italian football though suffers from poor attendance, with Juve moving to a smaller stadium with bigger commercial income.

The higher up the league you are, the MUCH higher the draw for hugely expensive executive seating, and commercial income, which already means the bigger teams get a huge amount more than smaller teams.

You might point out the deals Real and Barca have, but how much debt were Barca plunged into when they didn't get paid their tv rights money? its not all good news, the deal made seemingly didn't actually match the revenue for the tv companies that they paid(I'm only assuming there).

Barca and Real might be getting more money now, but what happens in 2-3 years when its renegotiated, another 5 teams in the league are in administration and fans are simply not watching 2/3rd's of Barca's games anymore?

Barca/Real managed to get silly money at their peak, but what happens when that slumps, they might end up with offers of half what they got before, yet wages that will plunge them into severe debt.

Its a terrible idea, the Spanish model is completely unsustainable, Betis were responsible for what, 18mil of the roughly 30mil owed in wages that the strike was over a the start of the season, and they stayed top for 5 games, its insane.

The Spanish league is the model of how a league should not be run, with Italian teams striking aswell, rife with corruption, with poor attendance figures and clubs in debt, they aren't either.


I'm honestly not sure what the tv revenue is in Germany, nor the stability of most of the clubs, however atmosphere seems to be fantastic in most if not all the games I catch, the support is fantastic, there seems to be a heck of a lot more competition than in any other top league at the moment, a large portion of the young talent coming through at the moment seems to be either German, or coming up through the German league.

I know Bayern make silly money though, is that all through tv money, fanbase, match day income, commercial/corporate, sponsorship, I do know their shirt deal is one of the top deals in Europe.
 
Bayern do indeed make silly money, but they're a massive European side.

The German league, in terms of attendance, finance and standard of football is very good :)

Watched a fair bit and listen/read a lot about it :)
 
Premier League needs more than just its top teams to be a global hit

Liverpool's plan to sell foreign TV rights individually would dilute the competitive character of the Premier League
Anyone involved in English football these past 20 years or so knows two things. One is that you cannot stand in the way of progress, the other is that progress is actually spelled G-R-E-E-D. So if the big clubs want more of the overseas television money that has climbed from nothing to colossal proportions on the back of their fame and success over the past couple of decades, one imagines that eventually they will find a way to get it, even if it is difficult at the moment to envisage 14 Premier League clubs voting for a change that would disadvantage most of them.

Liverpool's managing director, Ian Ayre, makes a valid point when he suggests that the huge growth in television subscriptions in Asia and the Middle East has not been fuelled by people wanting to watch Bolton or Fulham every week, but by support for teams such as Manchester United or his own. Fair enough, though there is another way of looking at those figures. If the Premier League is comfortably the most watched league in the world, with an estimated 70% of the global TV market for football, then part of that success must be due to its success as a league. Clubs such as Chelsea, Liverpool and United may be driving the global interest, but since they cannot play each other every week people must be tuning in no matter who happens to be providing the opposition.

In other words, clubs such as Wigan and QPR, and even Blackpool or Hull City in recent seasons, still have a part to play. What appears to be unique about English football is that while the result in a game between United and Wigan or Chelsea v Fulham may not be all that hard to predict, the game itself may not be all that predictable and the entertainment factor can still be quite high. That's not to mention games in recent seasons between Blackpool and Liverpool, say, or Hull and Arsenal, where the results were not predictable at all.

This weekend brings the north-west derby between Liverpool and Manchester United, always one of the most eagerly awaited fixtures in the Premier League calendar if rarely in recent years as high-powered and relevant an event as the increasingly gripping showdowns between Barcelona and Real Madrid. But because of the way television money is distributed in Spain – the model that Ayre and Liverpool would like the Premier League to copy – interest falls away sharply once the leading lights are pitted against those who are in La Liga merely to make up the numbers.

This is not intended as an attack on the quality or depth of the Spanish league, but it is possible to surmise merely from the television viewing figures that even Barcelona are not must-watch material if they are only playing Getafe or Levante. Whereas the more equitable distribution of funds between English clubs means that most have not only decent players but footballing personalities who are recognised around the world – think of Tim Cahill, Joey Barton, Shay Given, Peter Crouch, Danny Murphy and many more – and an English Premier League game will generally be well-contested and exciting until the end.

There are exceptions, of course, and Blackburn's collapse at Old Trafford last season comes readily to mind, but it is quite easy to show the competitive strength of the Premier League in statistics. Manchester United won the title last year despite winning only five games (of 19) away from home. That may have caused Sir Alex Ferguson some discomfort, yet that there were 14 opponents who either held or beat the champions on their own ground speaks volumes for the close-knit nature of the English league. For purposes of comparison, Barcelona won 14 away league games last season. Real Madrid, runners-up in La Liga, won 13. Milan won Serie A by winning 11 times on the road, as did Borussia Dortmund in the Bundesliga. In Portugal, André Villas-Boas won the title with Porto after securing 13 away wins, quite an amazing stat given that Portuguese teams play only 15 away fixtures, though not one that necessarily has viewers in east Asia setting their alarms for appointment television.

This is what the Premier League has without realising it, and what some of its members are now discussing throwing away. One might have thought that the teams at the top of the Premier League pile already have more than enough money and have no real need of further compromising their domestic competition by claiming more, though it needs to be remembered that Liverpool are not quite in the same financial clover as their immediate rivals. While not as skint as Everton – who is? – they have not enlarged their stadium like Arsenal and Manchester United, and have not the private backing that Chelsea and Manchester City can rely on.

It is easy to understand why they would like to cash in on their name and their fame, because they were unlucky enough to do all their conquering of Europe in the 70s and 80s, when name and fame was mostly all success brought. They have been somewhat unfairly accused of neglecting to build their brand during the good years, in the way that Manchester United did so impressively in the 90s and Arsenal and Chelsea have been doing since, but Liverpool never had the moneymaking machinery and guaranteed global exposure of the Premier League behind them when they were beating off the likes of Ipswich, Watford and Southampton to win their host of titles. (And United, Arsenal and Everton, of course, I don't mean to belittle Liverpool's achievements, but few things illustrate how times have changed better than Watford finishing runners-up.)

As a matter of record, in the 16 seasons since Blackburn's one-off title in 1995, not only has the title been shared between a mere three different teams – United, Chelsea and Arsenal – but only two more teams have managed to finish second – Liverpool and Newcastle. Manchester City's third place last season represented the first new face in the top three since Leeds surprised Liverpool in 2000. So it is not quite true to say changes to the distribution of foreign TV revenues would concentrate power in the hands of just a few clubs and create an unalterable elite at the top of the league. That much has already happened. Yet, despite everything, what goes on in the 15 positions below the top five is still pretty entertaining, impressively competitive and greatly enjoyed by the majority of fans, even though most are resigned to the fact that it is almost impossible to win anything of note any more. That is quite a delicate balancing act, and for all the many things that are wrong with the greed business, the Premier League is still rated around the world and massively popular throughout all the levels of football in this country.

The main problem with the Liverpool proposal is that it implies that 14 or 15 clubs in the league are relatively unimportant. They are not. It is perhaps just as well that 14 or 15 clubs will have to agree before anything can change.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/oct/12/premier-league-foreign-tv-rights
 
Bayern do indeed make silly money, but they're a massive European side.

The German league, in terms of attendance, finance and standard of football is very good :)

Watched a fair bit and listen/read a lot about it :)

The Bundesliga is a model that all leagues should follow however until they do, any league that does will be unfairly disadvantaged in Europe.

As above, I'd be in favour of some sort of complete shared revenue system providing it was implemented throughout Europe. At the moment it's a bit of a farce, how do you decide what should be shared and what shouldn't? Right now you've got 'lesser' clubs benefiting from Liverpool and Utd's global appeal through the form of shared overseas TV deals, yet Liverpool and Utd see no benefit from Arsenal & Chelsea's geographical advantage and the fact they can charge 2 or 3 times as much per ticket than northern sides can.
 
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