Looking to convert from CRT to LCD

The Dell is loads cheaper than it used to be and £105 cheaper than the NEC. I think I can remember the Dell being £411 early on after release, and I can definitely remember it being £380 the same week I bought mine for £290 off the bay, and Dell are still selling it at £340, so £234 isn't that bad. Pitty it's out of stock though, maybe Gibbo can post when they're getting them in again?

Whether it's worth that extra over the price of a TN is completely subjective. I personally think it is after hating the two TN panel screens I bought before it because of the awful viewing angles, although TN may well have improved somewhat since then.
 
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fish99 said:
The Dell is loads cheaper than it used to be and £105 cheaper than the NEC. I think I can remember the Dell being £411 early on after release, and I can definitely remember it being £380 the same week I bought mine for £290 off the bay, and Dell are still selling it at £340, so £234 isn't that bad. Pitty it's out of stock though, maybe Gibbo can post when they're getting them in again?

Whether it's worth that extra over the price of a TN is completely subjective. I personally think it is after hating the two TN panel screens I bought before it because of the awful viewing angles, although TN may well have improved somewhat since then.
Do you think I would notice the black and colours on either the LG L204WT 20" or Samsung SM-206BW 20" monitors?

If the colour representation is that bad, I will just have to save up harder for a Dell 2007WFP. :(:/
 
I do feel the colour reproduction problem on the better tn-panels is wildly exaggerated. I've got a 226bw right alongside a dell 2407 and ..quite obviously the dell's colours are better but the 226bw's are still what i'd consider "very good".
 
bobert50 said:
I do feel the colour reproduction problem on the better tn-panels is wildly exaggerated. I've got a 226bw right alongside a dell 2407 and ..quite obviously the dell's colours are better but the 226bw's are still what i'd consider "very good".
So if you did the colour tests (red to black, blue to black, etc), would you say the colour gradient is smooth and consistent?
 
We're talking colour accuracy, not that gradients aren't smooth or anything like that. TBH I didn't find colours that bad on the TNs I owned but I do think they are better on my 2007WFP. The main weakness of TN is the viewing angles, the other things are pretty minor IMO.

The poor black depth problem is on all TFTs, whether they be TN, IPS, MVA or PVA. On all the screens I've owned - that's 2 TNs, 2 PVAs and 2 IPS (including a 1500:1 screen), they've all had poor black depth.

Again though, it's only a problem in a dark room.
 
fish99 said:
We're talking colour accuracy, not that gradients aren't smooth or anything like that. TBH I didn't find colours that bad on the TNs I owned but I do think they are better on my 2007WFP. The main weakness of TN is the viewing angles, the other things are pretty minor IMO.

The poor black depth problem is on all TFTs, whether they be TN, IPS, MVA or PVA. On all the screens I've owned - that's 2 TNs, 2 PVAs and 2 IPS (including a 1500:1 screen), they've all had poor black depth.

Again though, it's only a problem in a dark room.
TBH, viewing angle won't me a problem for me - I'll almost always be sat straight on at it. The rest of the time, I'll have the monitor pulled to the front of the desk, so I can watch films/etc on it at night time. :)
 
Viewing angles isn't just about watching the screen from 45 degrees off to the side, vertical viewing angles on TN mean you get a colour gradient from the top to the bottom of the screen. So what should be the same colour will be darker at the top of the screen and lighter at the bottom, that's even with your head dead still looking straight on. You will also see colour shift when your head moves up and down even a little.

All this is irrelevant though if you don't have the budget for a non-TN. If you don't want to spend £230 or even £200 for a 22", just get a 20" TN like the sammy you listed.
 
Hi Basmic, got your email, sorry for delayed reply :)

I've been reading that I should look for contrast ratios above 500:1, go for a moderate brightness level.

tbh you won't find many screens nowadays with anything lower. The brightness figure basically tells you the maximum luminance of the screen, theoretically the higher the better. Note that the recommended brightness for an LCd in normal lighting conditions is 120 cd/m2 so you'd never really want to have the brightness pumped up to full. however, being able to produce a good brightness is a positive thing, and also helps with contrast.

The contrast ratio figure tells you the difference (as recorded by the manuf at least) between the brightest white and darkest black. So the higher the contrast ratio the better really. If you divide the brightness value by the contrast ratio it will tell you the corresponding black level of the screen. For instance, a screen at 500 cd/m2 brightness with a contrast ratio of 1000:1 would mean black level at that luminance was 0.5 cd/m2. the lower the black depth, the better. some more details on specs here which might be handy for you.


Now the thing that's going to get me, is the pixel response time.....From what I've read, some manufacturers have different ways of measuring response time - ie: grey-grey, back-to-black, and back-to-white. Is there any way of telling who has used which method to measure these times? Or is it pot luck? I suppose I'm looking for a 4-5ms or better response time - but I am open to suggestions and comments.

Generally if response time is listed in specs as "G2G" then the manufacturer has used Response Time Compensation / Overdrive to boost responsiveness across these transitions. If it's quoted without mentioning G2G then it's a traditional non-overdriven panel more often than not. Rather than me explaining it all, take a look at the details on response time here as it explains it in much more depth. There is a noticeable improvement in actual responsiveness when overdrive is used, so i would definitely recommend looking for a screen with RTC and G2G quoted response times.

One more thing while I remember - bugs! How easy is it to get these swines out, should they decide my new monitor is a nice home?

I've never personally had a problem with them, but come summer time, there's always a fair few threads in here about them. Prob best to check those

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Regarding your choice though. I think with a budget of £200, and given your requirements, you're probably going to have to settle for TN Film based screens. Some of what has been said above is a little inaccurate however I would say, statements such as "TN Film has poor black depth and poor colour accuracy" are not really true nowadays. One thing you have to remember about colour accuracy is that buying a specific panel technology will not automatically guarantee good colour accuracy. I see too many people trying to buy IPS based screens claiming they have better colour accuracy than TN Film. However, these people never seem to consider that this is only really the case if the screen is calibrated professionally using a colorimeter. Out-of-the-box accuracy really can vary a lot, and I've actually found that (very well regarded and popular) IPS based models like the NEC 20WGX2 for instance are actually very poor in terms of colour accuracy at default settings. Take a look at the colour accuracy section in this review and you'll see what i mean.

What I'm saying is, don't assume that TN Film offers poor colour accuracy, and IPS/VA are so much better. Yes, they offer a wider colour palette (8-Bit colour depth rather than 6-Bit with FRC). Will an average user ever really notice a difference? Probably not nowadyas. Are IPS/VA capable of excellent colour accuracy? Yes, but only with proper calibration. TN Film panels are also capable of very good colour accuracy nowadays too with calibration. Take the Acer AL2216W for instance, colour accuracy out of the box is actually better than the IPS based NEC20WGX2! Most users won't have access to hardware colorimeter tools, so i'd try not to get too bogged down with colour accuracy. Check reviews of default colour settings as they are probably more relevant to your situation as a user.

Similar thing with black depth. TN Film panels are actually capable of very good black depth nowdays. Again, the Acer AL2216w is a good example, offering a calibrated black depth of 0.23 cd/m2, very good for a TN Film panel and better than IPS based panels again like the NEC 20WGX2.

Anyway, i'm waffling! :) What I'm saying is, too many people dismiss TN Film, when in reality they are perfectly adequate for many many users. Viewing angles (as Fish99 has said) are probably the main weak point of TN Film, being quite restrictive in some models. I've found latest generation of Samsung models (such as the SM205BW - predecessor to the 206BW) were actualyl pretty good, some older TN Film are much worse, especially vertically. If it's just you using the screen from in front, you probably won't find it a problem at all anyway.

The Samsung SM206BW seems a good choice for you I'd say. It's using a 2ms G2G TN Film panel, offering good responsiveness in pratcice. This puts it a step above non-overdriven panels such as the LG L204WT (5ms ISO response time) and Dell E207WFP for instance (5ms again). you can even compare some tests of the SM206BW (2ms overdriven panel) vs the SM205BW (6ms version before it without overdirve) here and see the comparative difference. You could maybe stretch to the SM226BW at £235 though which is a little bigger and very highly regarded as a gamers screen. The SM206BW is very good though, pretty comparable in a smaller size. Regarding the 19" vs 20", I'd say the WS format of the 20" model is very good to havem, certainly far better for movies and very nice for gaming nowadays. The extra res is also very nice, ideal for office use and good for split screen side by side working. I'd def recomment getting a 20"WS over a 19" model tbh. Anyway, hope all that helps, let me know if any questions
 
i just got an lg194wt and i found that for me it doesnt feel like the hight is limited, its about the same hight as my 17" crt and a lot wider, very impressed with the colour also, the colours are a lot better than on my crt, although text isnt as sharp obviously because its an lcd.
 
Very informative stuff there Baddass, enjoyed reading that. I never really considered the whole colours before calibration issue. Also think my views on TNs are a few years out of date ;)

I have a quick question actually - would your average user be able to tell the difference between a screen that's calibrated and one that isn't? Let's say I took my 2007 and calibrated it with a colorimeter, would it just look 'different' to my untrained eye rather than necessarily better? When I compare my 2 screens here (2007 + old PVA sammy), they have quite a different 'tint' to them, but using one on it's own I never notice it. Just wondering if I'm missing out on something by not calibrating properly.
 
fish99 said:
Very informative stuff there Baddass, enjoyed reading that. I never really considered the whole colours before calibration issue. Also think my views on TNs are a few years out of date ;)

I have a quick question actually - would your average user be able to tell the difference between a screen that's calibrated and one that isn't? Let's say I took my 2007 and calibrated it with a colorimeter, would it just look 'different' to my untrained eye rather than necessarily better? When I compare my 2 screens here (2007 + old PVA sammy), they have quite a different 'tint' to them, but using one on it's own I never notice it. Just wondering if I'm missing out on something by not calibrating properly.

no problems Fish99 :) I have thought for a long time that you are one of the more informed and helpful members of this forum when it comes to monitor advice, and your views on TN Film are still valid to a point I think. I hope the above post helped a bit though as I do get sick of reading (more elsewhere than here tbh) about people immediately dismissing TN Film as utter crap simply based on a few assumptions they seem to have made for themselves. Same thing with PVA/MVA really, some people are way too quick to assume IPS >>>>>> MVA/PVA >>>>>TN Film imo, but each technology has it's niche (hence why they are all still here :))

reharding calibration, that's a tricky one. Some screens I test look really bad out of the box. For instance I'm currently using the Samsung 931C (92% gamut WCCFL backlighting) and that was overly bright, washed out and way too virbant at default settings. Calibrating without a colorimeter is tricky, and in my experience all you really achieve is getting a more comfortable brightness and contrast in practice. Other screens actually look pretty good at default, and the Dell 2007WFP was one of these. Colour accuracy will probably still be well out, but for an average user, it probably won't matter as long as colours look even, comfortable and brightness/contrast is set well. Calibrating does make a difference though, it's handy for getting gamma right which can impact how shades of a different colour are rendered. Colour temp is also set which is good for those screens which don't have preset modes (which are sometimes pretty decent). The Spyder2Express was a decent enough device when i tested it, but didn't really produce really accurate colours either. Problem is you need an expensive tool to get really decent rendering, and some screens aren't capable of producing top notch accuracy anyway. If I lived nearer mate I'd pop round and you could have a play with the LaCie :)
 
Cheers Baddass :) Good to hear I don't really need a colorimeter. Come to think of it I've never even used software calibration on my screen, suppose I should give it a go.

I'm still a bit biassed againts LCDs as a whole, especially with a game like Bioshock just around the corner, which would really benefit from a screen that could display a deep black and distinguish near black colours, something I don't think the 2007 does well even for an LCD. Having said all that I wouldn't have a CRT back and I do love my dell 98% of the time.
 
fish99 said:
Cheers Baddass :) Good to hear I don't really need a colorimeter. Come to think of it I've never even used software calibration on my screen, suppose I should give it a go.

I'm still a bit biassed againts LCDs as a whole, especially with a game like Bioshock just around the corner, which would really benefit from a screen that could display a deep black and distinguish near black colours, something I don't think the 2007 does well even for an LCD. Having said all that I wouldn't have a CRT back and I do love my dell 98% of the time.

yeah it's worth a go. I found (before the days of having a colorimeter) that a bit of software calibration helped at least get it feeling a little more comfortable and to my taste, so worth having a play. I know what you mean about LCD's too, i could never go back to a CRT! :)
 
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