Man hypnotises himself before op

[Sankari]

Yes, but the thing is I never see facts on these cases, which is what leads me to believe its horsecrap. Its as simple as that really.

What do you mean by "I never see facts on these cases". The Beeb has just given you a bunch of facts. Are you saying that the Beeb is misrepresenting the truth?

Hypnosis as an anaesthetic alternative is well documented in medical journals, and confirmed by many studies and tests with control groups.

Like this one:

The Effectiveness of Adjunctive Hypnosis with Surgical Patients: A Meta-Analysis

Hypnosis is a nonpharmacologic means for managing adverse surgical side effects. Typically, reviews of the hypnosis literature have been narrative in nature, focused on specific outcome domains (e.g., patients’ self-reported pain), and rarely address the impact of different modes of the hypnosis administration. Therefore, it is important to take a quantitative approach to assessing the beneficial impact of adjunctive hypnosis for surgical patients, as well as to examine whether the beneficial impact of hypnosis goes beyond patients’ pain and method of the administration.

We conducted meta-analyses of published controlled studies (n = 20) that used hypnosis with surgical patients to determine: 1) overall, whether hypnosis has a significant beneficial impact, 2) whether there are outcomes for which hypnosis is relatively more effective, and 3) whether the method of hypnotic induction (live versus audiotape) affects hypnosis efficacy. Our results revealed a significant effect size (D = 1.20), indicating that surgical patients in hypnosis treatment groups had better outcomes than 89% of patients in control groups.

No significant differences were found between clinical outcome categories or between methods of the induction of hypnosis. These results support the position that hypnosis is an effective adjunctive procedure for a wide variety of surgical patients.

IMPLICATIONS: A meta-analytical review of studies using hypnosis with surgical patients was performed to determine the effectiveness of the procedure. The results indicated that patients in hypnosis treatment groups had better clinical outcomes than 89% of patients in control groups.

These data strongly support the use of hypnosis with surgical patients.
​

Source.

Examples could be multiplied. This is not "fake"; it is a real phenomenon, proven by medical science. Hypnosis is not a trick; it's just a mental discipline that anyone can learn.

 

[Jingo...]

I have had surgery twice now without the use of aenesthetic, but I much prefer the word hypnosis to be replaced by meditation

I would describe the works undertaken as uncomfortable and very unusual but not painful by any means.

Whatever title you want to give it, focussing your mind in order to take a further element of control of your body is something that should not be dismissed as easily as I feel it is.

 

[Combat squirrel]

Hypnosis is by very design using your subconcious to trick your concious mind. Planting an idea in your subconcious to almost override what your concious mind is telling you.

You almost have that the wrong way round, pain signals are what your subcouncious mind receives, in wiring terms, you dont 'plant an idea in your sub-c', you plant the idea in your concious mind, think of it as layering, the c-mind exists on the sub-c mind, kind of like bios/OS, you can use the more advanced 'programming' to overide basic instincts.

For you to dismiss hypnosis is very silly, your just renaming what everyone generally calls hypnosis, its a very real tool as said, millions of people every year use it, and this guy has, so why do you insist it doesn't work ?

 

[drunkenmaster]

What do you mean by "I never see facts on these cases". The Beeb has just given you a bunch of facts. Are you saying that the Beeb is misrepresenting the truth?

ALl the beeb said is, there was this guy, he had an operation, he used hypnosis, it worked. We have no idea about ANY of the other situations around the surgery. What are the guys "normal" brain chemicals like, does he feel much less pain than average, is he taking one of the thousands of medications that aren't analgesics but can still cause vastly different reactions to pain or scramble signals or do one of dozens of things. Was he infact on other types of analgesics. Did they give him something to paralyse the hand just not dull the pain? Would the surgeon have wanted to do a delicate procedure on a guy who might wince move his hand with pain and cause an accidental cut that leads to him bleeding out? those would all be "facts". This article had none. His last operation he did this in, he DID feel pain, we also know nothing surrounding the circumstances of that operation either.

For you to dismiss hypnosis is very silly, your just renaming what everyone generally calls hypnosis, its a very real tool as said, millions of people every year use it, and this guy has, so why do you insist it doesn't work ?

How am I renaming it, I'm flat out saying it doesn't work at all. I did already call it a placebo in so many words when talking about fear of heights.

The concious and subconcious minds are different. While we might classify the part of the brain that recieves pain signals as the sub concious. THe reaction to the pain is in the concious mind, the pulling away, and shouting, trying to stop the pain is all concious. The idea in this situation is to plant the "it doesn't actually hurt" idea in the sub concious so when you feel the pain you simply ignore it with the concious mind and do not react to it at all.


AS for coming up with convuluted, unlikely reasons for it to have worked thats "not" hypnosis. You should REALLY read up on brain chemistry and how a small difference can massively change things like pain perception and how endorphines and adrenaline can mask pain. These are NOT convuluted idea's, these are very VERY standard principles behind how the brain works. The likelyhood that this guy has a high tolerance to pain for whatever reason(small number of nerve cells, higher levels of certain chemicals in brain, long term chronic pain) are all infinitely more likely than hypnosis working.

Just because YOU don't realise what goes on in everyones brain daily and how very different a lot of people are because of slight differences doesn't mean there aren't.

 

[drunkenmaster]

I have had surgery twice now without the use of aenesthetic, but I much prefer the word hypnosis to be replaced by meditation

I would describe the works undertaken as uncomfortable and very unusual but not painful by any means.

Whatever title you want to give it, focussing your mind in order to take a further element of control of your body is something that should not be dismissed as easily as I feel it is.

Give us some more info then, hows your normal pain perception, normal pain meds, length of pain, what operations, any "other" medications while in surgery like sedatives, paralysing drugs, hell, pain meds that aren't a general anaesthetic.

 

[Tefal]

Anyone else wonder what would happen if the guy had sneezed and lost his concentration half way through


And did they still give him the muscle relaxants/paralyzing drugs?

 

[Sankari]

ALl the beeb said is, there was this guy, he had an operation, he used hypnosis, it worked. We have no idea about ANY of the other situations around the surgery. What are the guys "normal" brain chemicals like, does he feel much less pain than average, is he taking one of the thousands of medications that aren't analgesics but can still cause vastly different reactions to pain or scramble signals or do one of dozens of things. Was he infact on other types of analgesics. Did they give him something to paralyse the hand just not dull the pain? Would the surgeon have wanted to do a delicate procedure on a guy who might wince move his hand with pain and cause an accidental cut that leads to him bleeding out? those would all be "facts". This article had none. His last operation he did this in, he DID feel pain, we also know nothing surrounding the circumstances of that operation either.

I see.

Well, as I have already demonstrated, the use of hypnosis is well documented by standard authorities in recognised medical journals and peer-reviewed tests under controlled conditions, so you really have no basis for writing it off.

 

[AHarvey]

Drunkenmaster says:-

"LA LA LA ....its all brain chemistry ...LA LA LA"

Seriously though, if we posted scientific articles about hypnosis helping in the control of pain would you even consider changing your mind? Or would you, just come up with more buts and ifs and try to pick holes in the research?

Not the scientific paper itself but an article about the paper/experiment:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050326100346.htm

"More practically, for clinical use, it helps to dispel prejudice about hypnosis as a technique to manage pain because we can show an objective, measurable change in brain activity linked to a reduced perception of pain," he added.

Hypnosis might be a placebo, it may cause the brain to alter its own chemical balance or just trick the mind into believing the pain isn't there. However, it does work to some degree, to outwardly state that its a load of poppycock is rather short sighted and narrow minded.

 

[Jingo...]

Give us some more info then, hows your normal pain perception, normal pain meds, length of pain, what operations, any "other" medications while in surgery like sedatives, paralysing drugs, hell, pain meds that aren't a general anaesthetic.

I would say I have normal pain perception- however, being unable to take any medication i.e. painkillers/anti-inflams on a regular basis may have made me slightly more tolerant.

There were no drugs/sedatives or pre-meds - only 'deadening cream' placed upon the skin to remove sensitivity during intial incisions.

Operations were to remove questionable lumps from the liver. No problems during the operation which took around 30/45 minutes. Nonetheless was a painful few days afterwards

 

[drunkenmaster]

I see.

Well, as I have already demonstrated, the use of hypnosis is well documented by standard authorities in recognised medical journals and peer-reviewed tests under controlled conditions, so you really have no basis for writing it off.

Well I do actually. Firstly think about what happens during hypnosis, essentially, not much of anything.

Secondly, I can't disprove hypnosis, but neither can any study ever conclude it isn't just a placebo effect, especially when every study says the same thing, reduced pain, we have no clue why, or how it works though, at all. Well if all the reports say they have no idea how or why it works, I'm sure convinced.

Thirdly, pretty much every single pain medication trial ever shows the same reduction in pain for lots of the people on a placebo, and get the same effects as those shown under hypnosis.

Number four, I've seen evidence of relatively few surgerys, most of which are done by people who stand to profit by saying it works, overly cynical, maybe.


Next point I can't seem to word well at all, or politely

I would say that its a more, the kind of person who more easily has faith in things that will even try hypnosis in the first place, which in all fairness would make them more susceptable to the placebo effect aswell.

Frankly, for decades, centurys there have been stories of people coping with abnormal levels of pain, stress, endurance and so on without hypnosis. Mind over matter, we all kind of know the mind is capable of more than your average everday thing. Some people show amazing feats of bravery, strength, courage, endurance, pain tolerance to a degree that seems more than logical all without hypnosis.

ANyway like I said it, at least for the forseeable future, is both impossible to disprove, or prove hypnosis works.

For me, the most damning thing against it is the fact that known placebo's can clearly have the same effect. It might not prove hypnosis is fake, but it 100% proves that a reduction in pain is 100% possible from a placebo, which means its 100% possible to simply tell yourself you won't feel pain and you won't.

PS the last article linked pretty much says, that the pain is seen as all identical except the missing step with less or no pain was the communication from the essentially subconcious recieving of pain signals, to the concious feeling/reacting to pain part of the brain. It also mentions they have no idea why it works at all.

I'm a logical person who believes in science. Lack of disproof does not equal proof to me. Especially when I'll say it again, no one has a clue how it works. Also the simple method of hypnosis, to me, seems ridiculous. Nothing is happening except you are letting yourself get relaxed and believe something you would normally not except as possible/true.

 

[james.miller]

Hypnosis has been used for surgery lots of times before. Must be a slow news day.

yeah people hypnotize themselves all the time lol

 

[SexyGreyFox]

hypnosis is a tool,

It's a placebo!

EXACTLY, which by default means that hypnosis works.
If you go in believing it will work then whatever name you give has worked.

I gather you missed the series Alternative Therapies that was only on BBC2 about 3 weeks ago.
One of them was about Hypnotherapy and the Doctor/Expert doing the program was a complete sceptic.
After her experiences she came to the conclusion that hypnotism is a very powerful placebo that does work.

 

[Tefal]

EXACTLY, which by default means that hypnosis works.
If you go in believing it will work then whatever name you give has worked.

I gather you missed the series Alternative Therapies that was only on BBC2 about 3 weeks ago.
One of them was about Hypnotherapy and the Doctor/Expert doing the program was a complete sceptic.
After her experiences she came to the conclusion that hypnotism is a very powerful placebo that does work.

I think Evangelion's post was a joke as thew guy before him said

At least no ones called it a placebo yet

 

[drunkenmaster]

EXACTLY, which by default means that hypnosis works.
If you go in believing it will work then whatever name you give has worked.

I gather you missed the series Alternative Therapies that was only on BBC2 about 3 weeks ago.
One of them was about Hypnotherapy and the Doctor/Expert doing the program was a complete sceptic.
After her experiences she came to the conclusion that hypnotism is a very powerful placebo that does work.

yes but the placebo effect can come from really anything, its not hypnosis thats responsible. Its the power of the mind, rather than researching that directly, people are researching the indirect method of something else giving a placebo effect, its just, stupid.

At the end of a day if someone believes it won't work because its only a placebo it won't work on them. If we can find a way to truly trigger the certain responses of the brain and take control of them, we no longer need to "trick" our brains, but probably use them as maybe can be done properly.

Really the mind is too complex to fully understand yet and maybe not in our lifetimes, we'll see.

If its just a placebo it will be researched, disproved, stop being used and the next "in thing" to do will become popular, this cycle will keep repeating until we understand and can control the real science behind it. unfortunately that will just delay getting to the end result.

 

[shauncr91]

I saw something similar to this on TV a while back, I think it was on ripley's believe it or not.

A guy meditated for a while then had route canal treatment without ANY anesthetic

 

[Jingo...]

A guy meditated for a while then had route canal treatment without ANY anesthetic

Like with my personal example, it is all about what you tell your body to do

You are telling your lungs to breath in air as we speak, just as your heart is beating- through meditation one is able to control the areas of their body that feel pressure/pain/feeling to some extent.

The power of the mind far surpasses that of the body

 

[SexyGreyFox]

On the Alternative Therapies program a woman also had a root canal done under hypnosis and only felt mild pain a couple of times.
The thing is that she had to have 6 x 1 hour hypnotherapy sessions with the Dentist before the treatment
It must have cost a fortune.

 

[Glaucus]

On the Alternative Therapies program a woman also had a root canal done under hypnosis and only felt mild pain a couple of times.
The thing is that she had to have 6 x 1 hour hypnotherapy sessions with the Dentist before the treatment
It must have cost a fortune.

but worth it, if you need to do something afterwards. Or you are allergic to anaesthetic.

Even a mild allergic reaction is truly horrible.

 

[Combat squirrel]

How am I renaming it, I'm flat out saying it doesn't work at all. I did already call it a placebo in so many words when talking about fear of heights.

and triple Iv not even bothered to read most of your posts, they seem utter drivel, you could be picking at words, pulling words apart or whatever, I dont care.

Hypnosis generally speaking means controlling of the human mind, your own mind. All it is, is self control, now Mr dude had an operation, and he did not have anaesthetic, now regardless of weather his nerve endings were sending pain information to his brain, his mindset stopped it from bothering him, that is it, nothing more and nothing less, he controlled his mind and body.

To say that it doesnt flat out work at all, despite him having the OP and clearly it all went fine is just really stupid im afraid, thats like saying, the sky isnt blue, because i say so.