Max Spielmann copying my photographs..where do I stand?

[mr tommo]

My dad has run a local photography business for 15 years now. We do studio work, commercial, nursery photographs and school photographs.

Last night a customer called us to tell us that she saw another of our customers in Max Spielmann, taking photographs that she had bought from us from her childs nursery (the photos were still in our logo'd mounts) and asked the member of staff if she could make a canvas by scanning one of our photos.

They told her this was fine and would be a 1 hour wait. This lady didn't want to wait and asked for Max Spielmann to can and print duplicates of her orders, they happily oblidged.

Now we rewarded our customer that told us about this incident with gift vouchers and immediately called this Max spielmann who told me over the phone that they did not need to ask my permission to copy these photographs.

Obviously I know this is incorrect as many places such as Asda have called us in the past asking for permission to use the photos even on mugs and birthday cakes.

I called head office of max spielmann who told us that they were wrong to copy the photographs and I'm just in the process of writing out a complaint to their head office. After this phone call to HQ, the local branch had contacted thier are manager, who then called me stating that I was totally wrong and they did not need permission/copyright.

What should be my next course of action? I've told the local store that we will be doing spot checks on them in the future but they were fairly rude and dismissive about the issue.

It's not a big deal and our 6x4's and 8x6's are only £6-£8 each so its not about the amount of money, its principle. We take photos at over 120 nurseries/schools do if all our customers ordered one photo and got numerous prints done at places like Max Spielmann -who openly dismissed rules, we'd be out of business.

Sorry for the long post,
Tom

 

[Jay794]

Doesn't this depends on whether you sold the copywrite of the images to the customer or not?

If the customer owns the copywrite, then surely they can do what they want with them?

 

[Mint_Sauce]

What about changing your business model so this wouldn't be an issue in future. Say, charge up front for your services so you can make a living and then hand them the files to do as they wish, negating the whole problem.

You can still offer prints of course but that would be an additional fee to cover your costs and make a profit there also.

Otherwise I can imagine that you'd spend so much time chasing places it would drive you bonkers.

This shouldn't be the way things are but it's basically going to be impossible to stop and takes you away from doing what you do from what I can see.

 

[mr tommo]

We own the copyright. For some commercial work we sell the photos and copyright and this is pre-agreed with a signed letter.

 

[iamtheoneneo]

It's not a big deal

so drop it then.
i am currently going through this with a key designer that is being a total psychopath regarding her crappy art work that we used once out of the original remit .
its frustrating, a waste of time for everyone involved etc etc.

heaven forbid people want to reproduce/blow up an image of their kid my god.

 

[Scam]

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert but if you retain the copyright to these (and don't give it to the customer) then you shouldn't you be writing something a bit more stern than a complaint? What they're doing is theft and you should be making them aware of that. Also, isn't the customer who's getting them reproduced also breaking your copyright?

 

[Demon]

I can't offer advice, other then the obvious of getting proper legal advice from a solicitor..

I would hope it's wrong legally!

Out of interest, how much goes to the school? I've done some fund raising shoots (kid with Santa) for pre-schools, I raised £500-£700 on each shoot of approx 80-100 kids (Not 1/3 of a school) and had that been budgetted professionally, 2 hours of 'tog time and 2 hours of admin, at £50 per hour, plus print costs, it all comes to less then £300, it seemed to leave a 100% profit margin even with very low print prices, £2 for a 6x4, and +50p for each size up you went, or £10 for the original image + 2 6x4's, lets just say most wanted the original image..

I asked how much they (the school) get from the normal school photo's (assumed some kickback), and surprisingly they seemed to say it was 'nothing'.. but I can't believe that..

 

[mr tommo]

What about changing your business model so this wouldn't be an issue in future. Say, charge up front for your services so you can make a living and then hand them the files to do as they wish, negating the whole problem.

You can still offer prints of course but that would be an additional fee to cover your costs and make a profit there also.

Otherwise I can imagine that you'd spend so much time chasing places it would drive you bonkers.

This shouldn't be the way things are but it's basically going to be impossible to stop and takes you away from doing what you do from what I can see.

As from Jan we will be offering a CD - including copyright to our nursery customers. It will however be priced above all of our other packages. The problem is with nurseries is that you get many people who want to only spend £6 for example. So we still need to offer the printing option. We also get people ordering canvas', montages etc spending hundreds.

so drop it then.
i am currently going through this with a key designer that is being a total psychopath regarding her crappy art work that we used once out of the original remit .
its frustrating, a waste of time for everyone involved etc etc.

heaven forbid people want to reproduce/blow up an image of their kid my god.

Its about professionalism. We have never reproduced another photographers work without contacting them first and getting written permission. Its not fair and its illegal. Why on earth companies who are suposed to be profession on the high street are above these laws is really quite annoying.

Its not a waste of time, We've got the booking at the nursery, sent a photographer out for the day with all the kit, spend days sorting orders and taking payments, paid the nursery commission for allowing us to take photos and then we lose out because a high street shop can't follow copyright laws?

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert but if you retain the copyright to these (and don't give it to the customer) then you shouldn't you be writing something a bit more stern than a complaint? What they're doing is theft and you should be making them aware of that. Also, isn't the customer who's getting them reproduced also breaking your copyright?

Thats the reason for starting this thread, think trading standards are probably the correct place to call next but I'm not totally sure?

 

[Jay794]

Why on earth companies who are suposed to be profession on the high street are above these laws is really quite annoying.

Lol Max Spielmann and professional,

Don't get me started on London Camera Exchange or Tesco regarding "professional" photo printers

 

[#Chri5#]

Daft question (I might be miss-understanding this)...

How are Max Spielmann going to know if you have sold copyright to your customer or not? If they (MS) ask their customer if they have the right to copy your photo and the customer says yes, what else can MS do to check?

 

[mr tommo]

I can't offer advice, other then the obvious of getting proper legal advice from a solicitor..

I would hope it's wrong legally!

Out of interest, how much goes to the school? I've done some fund raising shoots (kid with Santa) for pre-schools, I raised £500-£700 on each shoot of approx 80-100 kids (Not 1/3 of a school) and had that been budgetted professionally, 2 hours of 'tog time and 2 hours of admin, at £50 per hour, plus print costs, it all comes to less then £300, it seemed to leave a 100% profit margin even with very low print prices, £2 for a 6x4, and +50p for each size up you went, or £10 for the original image + 2 6x4's, lets just say most wanted the original image..

I asked how much they (the school) get from the normal school photo's (assumed some kickback), and surprisingly they seemed to say it was 'nothing'.. but I can't believe that..

With schools, we are just starting getting into them. Previously our printing for nurseries had all been to studio standard on our Epson photo printers, but we've invested in a Fuji dry lab and it means we can reduce printing costs and speed up printing dramatically so that Schools will be a doddle now.

Expect schools to take anywhere between 10-20% of total sales. Or they may want to work on a per child pay structure.

 

[Gaffer]

And who has broken the law?

I've got a feeling it might be MS. They are the ones doing the copying (and charging the customer for it.)

It is unpleasant to go after your customers, but I wouldn't have any hesitation in setting the attack dogs on the printers.

Andrew

 

[mr tommo]

Daft question (I might be miss-understanding this)...

How are Max Spielmann going to know if you have sold copyright to your customer or not? If they (MS) ask their customer if they have the right to copy your photo and the customer says yes, what else can MS do to check?

Maybe thats where some confirmation is needed with regards the law. Unless they get the customer to sign a disclaimer to put the blame on them?

I just know that we try to contact the photographer ourselves at all times and have turned down plenty of printing working because the photographer wasn't aware that the customer was getting the work printed. Many times we've been called by Asda, Tesco and boots to get permission before they print the work. Sometimes we've allowed it if its just to use on mugs, cakes and T-shirts etc.

EDIT : @ Gaffer - Certainly won't be contacting the customer. Thats not good for business in the slightest, I'd just expect MS to be professional when it comes to such matters and to not break copyright law. I'm starting to think they will get their customers to sign a disclaimer but IMO they have a duty to act professionally.

 

[Rroff]

Its a tricky one because in most cases the customer isn't going to be aware of the copyright issues and in many cases just not care anyhow - or don't see that what they are doing is wrong - and your always going to get companies like Max Spielmann who aren't too fussy about following it up.

And as you said most parents, etc. aren't going to want to spend that much money on their kids photos.

 

[Andy90]

I remember a family member trying to get a picture 'copied' and printed a few years ago at Boots. The picture had a copyright stamp on the back and quite rightly they refused to print it. If I recall correctly it was an old school photograph.

Perhaps investing in such a stamp with your company name and the copyright symbol etc. together with a warning about copying might dissuade some people, You could also have a message that the copyright has not been transferred to the Customer.

 

[mr tommo]

That's not a bad idea actually. I'm sure our new printer can do a custom backprint. Thanks I'll look into that.

 

[iamtheoneneo]

Its about professionalism. We have never reproduced another photographers work without contacting them first and getting written permission. Its not fair and its illegal. Why on earth companies who are suposed to be profession on the high street are above these laws is really quite annoying.

Its not a waste of time, We've got the booking at the nursery, sent a photographer out for the day with all the kit, spend days sorting orders and taking payments, paid the nursery commission for allowing us to take photos and then we lose out because a high street shop can't follow copyright laws?

I understand completely, id be ****ed just as you are. My only problem with it all (not just this scenerio) is the imaginery line between protecting whats yours and then just acting like a spoilt brat that wants as many fingers in pies as possible. (and as a result further alienating customers)

Its a bit of a touchy subject for me at the mo because I have to deal with the later, people obviously want to replicate what they see as theirs (it's their kid after all on the image) so maybe as others have suggested you look at offering packages that take all that into account and relax the copyright a bit?

We live in an age where everyone wants everything for free, doesnt mean you cant still make a lot of money - you just need to adapt to that way of thinking.

 

[Demon]

That's not a bad idea actually. I'm sure our new printer can do a custom backprint. Thanks I'll look into that.

Read this..
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p02_protecting_copyright
and

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p05_copyright_infringement

Two things I'd do personally,

1. Get copyright notice printed on the reverse ASAP for future deterring
2. Get a willing parent to get this place to make a copy, and get that for proof.. Your contacting them may have actually made them more wary despite their attitudes, but if not, you have proof to take to a solicitor and go from there..

And on a lighter note..

I won't get into the extortionate prices companies charge, that's up to schools to sort out, or the government to impose a non-commercial use copyright flat fee structure for these things.. Oh, how I wish, £10 for non-commerical copyright + digitial image sounds fair to me

 

[mr tommo]

Definitely looking into the backprinting on the photos asap.

Spoke to trading standards, who didn't have a problem with us going into MS and doing spot checks. So like the above we will be going in for proof. Its difficult enough to try and run a business selling what is essentially luxuries in this current economic situation, without other companies making it harder for you by acting illegally.

Our CD with copyright is likely to be around the £50 mark with 5 images included, when we introduce it in January.

I don't mean to come across as stamping my feet for a few pounds, its more the principle than anything. I detest the prices some companies require a parent to pay for some school photos. You usually have to buy a package with 3 million useless photographs, keyrings, wallet photos, bookmarks etc just to get the image you want.

We don't work like that, we offer discounted packs but we also offer the parent to just walk away with spending just £6. Thats a 300% discount to our studio price because we operate on a low margin, high volume structure with the nurseries and to have other companies ripping off our work after all the effort that goes into taking that photo and everything that goes into it is rather frustrating.

Big companies like Asda can run strict rules regarding copyright law, and call a small photography studio in town to check copyright, but MS feel they are exempt from that.

I probably just sounds like I'm moaning over £6 here but its really frustrating because as a photographer you see the work that goes into that £6 photograph.

 

[Scougar]

The customer is more than likely aware that what they are doing is wrong... but personally.. I think it would be bad publicity to even talk to them about it.

You have a right to protect your work, but a person will copy regardless of what you say. Pick your battles wisely By all means talk to MS but be polite at all times, no matter what they say.

Good luck with your copyright, and it's obvious the MS manager is in the wrong.