Men's make up

Zefan said:
As a species females are selected for reproduction based on signs of genetic quality and fertility, which is almost entirely expressed through appearance. Obviously, makeup can do a good job of augmenting this. Male selection is also partly based on those elements, but these are overshadowed by the perception of the ability to control his environment, which is expressed through social status and access to resources. I think most would agree that makeup does not do a good job of augmenting this.
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4000 years of history doesn't seem to agree with your narrow view and framing of human interactions.

Male selection is also partly based on those elements,
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Then it would be completely logical to gain every advantage you can get in the quest for reproductive superiority and enhance every element there is, which as you say, make up does a good job of augmenting this part.

but these are overshadowed by the perception of the ability to control his environment, which is expressed through social status and access to resources.
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Did you actually think this through before typing it or was it just your instinctive knee jerk reaction to the subject?

I'd love to know why you think these things are mutually exclusive, when it's easily shown that men historically wearing make up have had no problems in controlling their environments, through social status and resources.
 
Freakbro said:
4000 years of history doesn't seem to agree with your narrow view and framing of human interactions.



Then it would be completely logical to gain every advantage you can get in the quest for reproductive superiority and enhance every element there is, which as you say, make up does a good job of augmenting this part.



Did you actually think this through before typing it or was it just your instinctive knee jerk reaction to the subject?

I'd love to know why you think these things are mutually exclusive, when it's easily shown that men historically wearing make up have had no problems in controlling their environments, through social status and resources.
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Again with the straw men. I didn't say men who wore makeup couldn't use it to their advantage, or succeed despite using it (although they tend not to), and I didn't say men shouldn't/can't wear makeup. I simply explained that there is definitely at least one logical reason why it is genderised (still not a word), outside of the (crude summary incoming) "because society!" points I was seeing made. This reason is that it benefits one gender to a far greater extent than the other, and as a result the use of it is imbalanced. Not exactly mind blowing stuff I'm sure you'll agree, which is why I was so "really? No reason?! Omg lol" about your claim that no logical reason exists.

And of course I think things through before I post them, what an embarrassingly bare faced ad-hominem angle, especially when it's not accompanied by an actual challenge to my point. Either you had a suitable challenge but decided to hold it in place of "do u even think bro", or you didn't, for me to lean one way or the other would be presumptuous.
 
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PlacidCasual said:
I love the idea men wore make up in the past. Yes historically correct but we're pretty much exclusively talking about aristocrats and the clerisy of one form or another. Basically those that relied on others to do stuff for them. Life has got too easy that men focus so much effort on preening themselves.
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It’s a fascinating subject. From Elizabethan times, (aristocratic) men’s fashion was all about looking as if you lived a life of total leisure. It was the ultimate display of wealth. Then the French Revolution happened and men had to look like they actually contributed some something to society and so men’s fashion became functional and boring.
 
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Rroff said:
That thumbnail is completely misleading and doesn't accurately represent either the start or end product in the video.
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Granted, there's been a certain amount of artistic licence utilised on the thumbnail, fatter nose etc. However, you can't deny the transformation is pretty incredible?
 
Zefan said:
I didn't say men who wore makeup couldn't use it to their advantage, or succeed despite using it
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To be fair, you didnt say much of any sense to me and portray a lot of opinion as fact.

Zefan said:
(although they tend not to),
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Got anything to back up that throughout history men wearing make up tend not to be successful? As PlacidCasual mentioned, in history it tended to be the most successful men who wore it, as a symbol of their status.

Zefan said:
and I didn't say men shouldn't/can't wear makeup. I simply explained that there is definitely at least one logical reason why it is genderised (still not a word),
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Genderized - verb (used with object),gen·der·ized, gen·der·iz·ing. to divide, categorize, or deal with on the basis of gender distinctions

Though gendered might be more common usage, seems a moot point to mention when you perfectly understand the meaning.

Zefan said:
outside of the (crude summary incoming) "because society!" points I was seeing made. This reason is that it benefits one gender to a far greater extent than the other, and as a result the use of it is imbalanced. Not exactly mind blowing stuff I'm sure you'll agree, which is why I was so "really? No reason?! Omg lol" about your claim that no logical reason exists.
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Again you are making this assumption based on your flawed premise that it's just females where physical attractiveness is a significant driver for reproductive success.


While it can be challenging to pinpoint precisely what makes a man attractive, studies have identified certain physical and personality traits that can make men more or less appealing to potential mates.
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Physical traits that make men irresistible​

When it comes to attraction, physical appearance often plays a huge role. Even if someone has a great personality, it can be difficult to feel a connection if they don't look the part.

  • Facial Features: Facial symmetry is sometimes an important factor in attraction. Research from Penn State indicates that men with symmetrical faces are often considered more attractive than those with asymmetrical faces. A defined jawline and prominent cheekbones are also attractive features that can give some men a more chiseled or defined look.
  • Body Characteristics: Height is another physical trait that can make guys more attractive. Taller men are often seen as more dominant and confident, which can be highly attractive to potential partners. A muscular build may also be attractive, as this can signify physical strength and health.
  • Grooming and Style: Physical appearance isn't just about the body. Grooming and style can also play a critical role in attraction. Men who take care of their physical appearance may appear more confident and put together, which can be highly attractive to anyone looking for a partner. While some people may prefer a rugged look, others may be drawn to guys who have a more polished style.
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So yes, my opinion is that acceptability of make up for men is just a social construct (that changed throughout history to be fashionable or not) rather than based in any fundamental logic.
 
Chuk_Chuk said:
Another over used word that’s lost all meaning. Someone expressing an opinion you don’t like doesn’t mean they are offended.
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OK, what word would you use to describe the motivation when the inoffensive actions of one person (wearing make up) causes another to voice a negative and judgemental opinion of them?
 
Chuk_Chuk said:
Another over used word that’s lost all meaning. Someone expressing an opinion you don’t like doesn’t mean they are offended.
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Some seemed to display a strong reaction to a fairly low impact situation, generally when this happens its a fair sign that someone has taken offence or is heavily influenced by a situation.
 
Freakbro said:
OK, what word would you use to describe the motivation when the inoffensive actions of one person (wearing make up) causes another to voice a negative and judgemental opinion of them?
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It’s called someone having an opinion. People have various opinions on various topics.

You may not like it but try not be offended. ;) ( but seriously your falling foul of your own definition of offended and you haven’t realised it)
 
Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
Some seemed to display a strong reaction to a fairly low impact situation, generally when this happens it’s a fair sign that someone has taken offence or is heavily influenced by a situation.
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For starters strong reaction is an ambiguous term. With no set way to define it and or have it widely agreed upon definition. What you may consider strong reaction another might just consider it a reaction.

As for the second part of your statement that is not strictly true as a generalisation.
 
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