Minimum room size for 5.1 cinema?

ghutchison14078 · 22 Jul 2017 at 22:30

sprite- said:
No problem mate. It's stonking good value, also nice to know the audio specialist gave same recommendation. Big bookshelf speakers are great - but in a smaller room their primary advantage is irrelevant. Also don't think you'll find anything that'll challenge the MASS with the bundle price. Just think, with the money saved you could afford and put a couple of in-ceiling speakers for an Atmos setup

Ultimately it's a taste thing, it'll depend what kind of speaker you prefer. I started with Q Acoustics 5.1 bookshelf set many years ago, after that I moved into KEF / style sat speakers. They offer fantastic sound, especially for movies and TV. They give that intense attacking sound which enhances a big action flick. I also personally don't like a set that dominates a room.

I settled on the Denon AVR-X3300W receiver, ordered it earlier today.

Got a bit of work to do in the room that I'm building my cinema setup in; having to relocate the radiator as it's currently on the wall that the projector screen is going on so I'm tackling the plumbing for that tomorrow. Also changing the standard ceiling lamp to recessed low wattage spots.

After that the A/V company is coming to confirm what will need done to install whichever speaker system I choose then book a date to come in a cut all the holes and runs for the cabling for the speakers and ceiling mounted projector and wire everything up for me.

Then it should just be a case of redecorating, putting the carpet in and mounting the 93 inch screen.

hornetstinger · 22 Jul 2017 at 22:32

You should audition the avr and speakers together, because you may prefer the sound with a speaker with a certain amp, and vice versa. For example I didn't like my B&W or Ruark speakers with Audiolab amplifiers, but with softer sounding amps like Yamaha they match better.

sprite- · 22 Jul 2017 at 22:40

ghutchison14078 said:
I settled on the Denon AVR-X3300W receiver, ordered it earlier today.

Got a bit of work to do in the room that I'm building my cinema setup in; having to relocate the radiator as it's currently on the wall that the projector screen is going on so I'm tackling the plumbing for that tomorrow. Also changing the standard ceiling lamp to recessed low wattage spots.

After that the A/V company is coming to confirm what will need done to install whichever speaker system I choose then book a date to come in a cut all the holes and runs for the cabling.

Ah. Good receiver choice bud!

Bet you can't wait to get it all setup. You may aswell get in-ceiling speakers in if you've got somebody professional coming in, get it done all at once. Goodluck with your speaker choice.

If it was me personally (just my tastes) and I didn't have the KEF 3005SE already... I would purchased the KEF E305 5.1 (Seen couple of open box on eBay for £599) and some KEF CI106QR ceiling speakers (£200 each).

Get yourself down a demo room and try a bunch of stuff out. Is what I did before I got my KEF 3005SE a few years ago.

ghutchison14078 · 22 Jul 2017 at 22:43

sprite- said:
Ah. Good receiver choice bud!

Bet you can't wait to get it all setup. You may aswell get in-ceiling speakers in if you've got somebody professional coming in, get it done all at once. Goodluck with your speaker choice.

If it was me personally (just my tastes) and I didn't have the KEF 3005SE already... I would purchased the KEF E305 5.1 (Seen couple of open box on eBay for £599) and some KEF CI106QR ceiling speakers (£200 each).

Get yourself down a demo room and try a bunch of stuff out. Is what I did before I got my KEF 3005SE a few years ago.

What do ceiling speakers add to the experience over and above a 5.1 setup? Are they specialist speakers or do you just get an extra 2 of the same satellites in your 5.1 and mount them above?

sprite- · 22 Jul 2017 at 22:48

ghutchison14078 said:
What would ceiling speakers add to the experience over and above a 5.1 setup? Are they specialist speakers or do you just get an extra 2 of the same satellites in your 5.1 and mount them above?

The AV Receiver you've bought is 7.1 and Atmos is supported so you can have 5.1.2. Allot of 4K UHDs and comes with an Atmos track. Also Netflix and Amazon going to start pumping out Atmos content.

You could put 2 of the same on ceiling but in ceiling speakers are specifically designed for the purpose so will perform better for that. Also recess into the ceiling so doesn't look silly having two big speakers on your ceiling.

In simple terms, Atmos allows content creators to map sound in a 3D space. So if you're watching a film and a helicopter is above in the scene, you'll hear it like it's above your head... If bullets are whizzing past the characters head, it'll feel like they're whizzing past yours. I've experienced it twice at a friends setup, it was a truely mind blowing experience. Reminded me of the first time I tried a proper 5.1 and could hear the sound of a car traveling by me with the rears. I plan to put ceiling speakers in soon.

ghutchison14078 · 22 Jul 2017 at 23:09

sprite- said:
Atmos allows content creators to map sound in a 3D space. So if you're watching a film and a helicopter is above in the scene, you'll hear it like it's above your head... If bullets are whizzing past the characters head, it'll feel like they're whizzing past yours. I've experienced it twice at a friends setup, it was a truely mind blowing experience. Reminded me of the first time I tried a proper 5.1 and could hear the sound of a car traveling by me with the rears. I plan to put ceiling speakers in soon.

Yep, need that in my life!! Hard to believe this cinema room plan started off with a tv and sound bar concept....right out the window.

sprite- · 22 Jul 2017 at 23:13

ghutchison14078 said:
Yep, need that in my life!! Hard to believe this cinema room plan started off with a tv and sound bar concept....right out the window.

It's a slippery slope mate. Thankfully once you get a great set, that's it... Speaker tech doesnt evolve much, a great set is a great set forever. I've had my 3005SE for quite a while now, feel no need to change them.

Assuming this is your first jump into more serious home audio, you're going to absolutely love it. My wife thought i was insane, now she completely sees why (she's even for ceiling speakers). Parents came to visit, immediately my dad went home and did the same with his living room (cheaper tannoy set) and he adores it.

hornetstinger · 23 Jul 2017 at 07:48

Personally I'd recommend speakers larger than the Kef eggs- for music satellite speakers are a compromise, it also means the subwoofer has to reach higher, so you need a better quality subwoofer as well.

And instead of going for Atmos at a lower budget (due to extra speakers) Go for better quality 5.1

sprite- · 23 Jul 2017 at 07:56

hornetstinger said:
Personally I'd recommend speakers larger than the Kef eggs- for music satellite speakers are a compromise, it also means the subwoofer has to reach higher, so you need a better quality subwoofer as well.

And instead of going for Atmos at a lower budget (due to extra speakers) Go for better quality 5.1

You keep repeating yourself..

Funny that the audio specialist recommended the same speakers I did for his room size, have to love the "Bigger, Bigger, Better, MOAR POWER" speaker bias rather then actual good advice

hornetstinger · 23 Jul 2017 at 08:02

You can get away with speakers larger than satellites in a room of that size. Also many "audio specialists" are into lifestyle systems. With satellites they have limited bass response, so music doesn't sound great. Also it means the subwoofer has to play higher up in the frequencies to compensate the speakers poor bass response, and many subs do not do that well with higher notes.

Also I'd recommend bipoles for the rears.

These are the speakers I'm using now and they sound bloody fantastic

https://picclick.co.uk/Celestion-A3-Main-Stereo-Speakers-With-Free-222475009536.html

sprite- · 23 Jul 2017 at 08:06

Just a word of warning @ghutchison14078 - Hornet has a bit of a history on this forum for heavily pushing larger speakers, when really not knowing a great deal on the subject. Hence the reason he repeats himself until somebody acknowledges him

Ultimately I'd recommend going down to a demo shop to try out the speakers you like the look of, because shape and style preference is nothing compared to what your ears actually prefer.

hornetstinger · 23 Jul 2017 at 08:16

sprite- said:
Just a word of warning @ghutchison14078 - Hornet has a bit of a history on this forum for heavily pushing larger speakers, when really not knowing a great deal on the subject. Hence the reason he repeats himself until somebody acknowledges him

Ultimately I'd recommend going down to a demo shop to try out the speakers you like the look of, because shape and style preference is nothing compared to what your ears actually prefer.

That sums up the larger speakers (function over form) Never had Denon AVR so unsure what makes match well sonically, but I'd be looking at this type of size of speaker
https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY1WDEwMjQ=/z/RV0AAOSw-0xYgyE8/$_86.JPG

Kef Eggs are suitable for side/surround and bedroom systems.

I've owned many speakers, subwoofers, amplifiers over the years, from bookshelf to large floorstander, a few center center speakers from 2 driver to 4 driver, bipole, dipole speakers.

Try listening to Kef egg for a center then replace with one of these and you'll hear why I'm "repeating myself"

http://cdn.audioaffair.co.uk/media/...78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/R/2/R200C_1.jpg

You'll find those with lifestyle systems have a other half to contend with.

sprite- · 23 Jul 2017 at 08:53

hornetstinger said:
That sums up the larger speakers (function over form) Never had Denon AVR so unsure what makes match well sonically, but I'd be looking at this type of size of speaker
https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY1WDEwMjQ=/z/RV0AAOSw-0xYgyE8/$_86.JPG

Kef Eggs are suitable for side/surround and bedroom systems.

I've owned many speakers, subwoofers, amplifiers over the years, from bookshelf to large floorstander, a few center center speakers from 2 driver to 4 driver, bipole, dipole speakers.

Try listening to Kef egg for a center then replace with one of these and you'll hear why I'm "repeating myself"

http://cdn.audioaffair.co.uk/media/...78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/R/2/R200C_1.jpg

You'll find those with lifestyle systems have a other half to contend with.

We've been through this before bud, on separate threads where you've jumped straight into recommending large speakers without even knowing somebodies room size or listening preferences. Not going over it again. Interesting that despite your "Big speaker, MOAR POWER" bias on previous threads they still went and demo'd and purchased the type of sets i recommended.

hornetstinger · 23 Jul 2017 at 08:56

sprite- said:
We've been through this before bud, on separate threads where you've jumped straight into recommending large speakers without even knowing somebodies room size or listening preferences. Not going over it again. Interesting that despite your "Big speaker, MOAR POWER" bias on previous threads they still went and demo'd and purchased the type of sets i recommended.

You realise you are biased as well? Sub/sat combinations are a compromise.

Try listening to 2 channel music in pure mode.

sprite- · 23 Jul 2017 at 09:01

hornetstinger said:
You realise you are biased as well? Sub/sat combinations are a compromise.

Try listening to 2 channel music in pure mode.

Incorrect - on both fronts. If you actually read my posts, i dont care what people buy. I present the options and actually consider somebodies room dimensions, budget and listening preferences. There is a huge amount of personal preference involved with speakers. I've seen you jump in on several occasions and start recommending massive speakers before you even know room size, listening split and style preference.

Saying satellite style speakers is a compromise really highlights how little you know about this subject. That's the last time i respond to you mate, isn't worth my time going into this with you again

.

hornetstinger · 23 Jul 2017 at 09:07

sprite- said:
Incorrect - on both fronts. If you actually read my posts, i dont care what people buy. I present the options and actually consider somebodies room dimensions, budget and listening preferences. There is a huge amount of personal preference involved with speakers. I've seen you jump in on several occasions and start recommending massive speakers before you even know room size, listening split and style preference.

Saying satellite style speakers is a compromise really highlights how little you know about this subject. That's the last time i respond to you mate, isn't worth my time going into this with you again .

Physics mate you can't get around the weaknesses of little speakers with a sub trying to reach high enough where the speakers roll off Try listening to music in 2 channel mode in pure on Kef Eggs, and standmount speakers and you'll go for the standmount.

I know a lot about this subject, seems you don't. Go ahead and run away because I'm right on this.

For a center speaker I'd recommend something this size, again a little speaker say 4"/5" in a small cabinet really does show it's weakness

https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/Mzk5WDYwMA==/z/Y~IAAOSwi8VZUSOV/$_20.JPG

ghutchison14078 · 23 Jul 2017 at 09:13

Calm down lads! I appreciate everyones input, im a newbie to all this A/V stuff so i appreciate different advice and points of view.

My A/V installer is popping round today to discuss speakers.

He is a Monitor Audio dealer so it's likely that if he can do me a decent deal on the speakers plus fitting it will be a Monitor Audio solution I end up with.

sprite- · 23 Jul 2017 at 09:20

ghutchison14078 said:
Calm down lads! I appreciate everyones input, im a newbie to all this A/V stuff so i appreciate different advice and points of view.

My A/V installer is popping round today to discuss speakers.

He is a Monitor Audio dealer so it's likely that if he can do me a decent deal on the speakers plus fitting it will be a Monitor Audio solution I end up with.

Great stuff. It does pay to get a professional in, he may even demo a select couple of sets in your room so you purchase the right set for you - i've personally installed all my own kit but when i put ceiling speakers in i'm getting somebody to come in to do that. Be nice just to sit back and come back to it all done. Also an ISF professional in to calibrate my TV.

hornetstinger · 23 Jul 2017 at 09:20

ghutchison14078 said:
Calm down lads! I appreciate everyones input, im a newbie to all this A/V stuff so i appreciate different advice and points of view.

My A/V installer is popping round today to discuss speakers.

He is a Monitor Audio dealer so it's likely that if he can do me a decent deal on the speakers plus fitting it will be a Monitor Audio solution I end up with.

Make sure you go and listen to other brands of speakers not just Monitor Audio. They may not pair well with Denon. Last time I heard Monitor Audio I found them too bright. I much preferred the Q Acoustics range.

When you demo a system concentrate on

a) Music- what is it like in 2 channel mode, with subwoofer on and off ( L/R full range with no sub, and L/R bass managed with subwoofer on)
b) Center speaker- speech, music and how it sounds duing complex and loud scenes
c) Subwoofer, for music, how well does go in depth and higher frequencies, does it become noticeable, boomy etc
d) Rear speakers, monopole and bipole. If you're very close to rear/side speakers I would recommend bipoles. They're more expensive but work better than monopoles. I've had dipoles in the past and of course tried monopoles but moved to bipoles.

Also don't just buy what the installer is pushing because he's going to be biased- plenty of other products out there that will offer better value for money, or just you prefer the sound of. He's obviously going to be biased on the products he sells and put down the ones he doesn't.

For the sub I'd recommend something like a 10" or 12" sealed box. I'm using a SVS SB12+ and SVS SB Ultra 13. Both sealed box subs. I've also owned the SVS PC Plus 12, and SVS PC Ultra 13.

ghutchison14078 · 23 Jul 2017 at 22:28

My A/V guy came round today; had a good look at the room, asked me what I planned to do and what experience I wanted to get from it all.

I told him about the Denon AVR-X3300W I'd ordered, he also commented as per Sprite did that it was an excellent choice.

So we talked speaker options and budget, as a Monitor Audio dealer is could beat most online prices by about 10% if I was buying through him and he was doing the installation.

Ceiling speakers were discussed but I'll have to forego them for the moment due to budget, I do plan to add them in the future as I will be swapping my current projector to a 4K when they become a bit more affordable- when this happens I will likely have to change the ceiling mount location as my current projector is short throw, at this time it would make sense to carry out ceiling speaker installation as i would have to cut holes etc for mounting a new projector.

As it turns out my A/V guy was about to commence a job at another customers last week but they had some sort of flooding issue so had to cancel their plans with him, so he offered me the speaker package he had purchased for that job and was now stuck with for a knocked down price.

They are the Q Acoustics Q7000i Plus, in black finish. I could have them for £600, which after doing some price Googling does look like a good deal.

Opinions?