Monosodium glutamate (MSG)

oli collett · 12 Jul 2009 at 23:20

hawker1986 said:
You mean other than the fact ive been babbling on about the effect of high free glutamic acid levels decreasing dopamine levels, which I have no idea how to prove to you, go look up the metabolic pathways and basic physiology.

Babbling on is great, but where are the studies that show MSG to cause headaches and act as a depressant?

hawker1986 · 12 Jul 2009 at 23:23

OK let me go through this slowly for you...if I tell you that high glutamic acid levels cause drops in dopamine in the brain, will you believe me? Or atleast if you dont believe me go and look and find out for yourself

JBuk · 12 Jul 2009 at 23:31

I can't find anything conclusive linking depression, dopamine & glutamatic acid

hawker1986 · 12 Jul 2009 at 23:33

Im going to assume that youll do one of those and get that far, now mood is affected by 3 main chemicals; serotonin, noradrenaline and dopamine. So alterations in these chemicals cause alteration in mood, this is a known fact, its how our antidepressant drugs work. Please feel free to check this out. Now Dopamine stimulation with a dopamine agonist is used to treat resistant depression and to rapidly improve peoples mood if they are suicidal for example. So more dopamine = happy, less dopamine = depressed.

So now if you can associate this with my previous post you should be able to come to some conclusions...like that high glutamate levels can potentially in some people cause some depressive symptoms.

Hawker

Glaucus · 12 Jul 2009 at 23:39

hawker1986 said:
Im going to assume that youll do one of those and get that far, now mood is affected by 3 main chemicals; serotonin, noradrenaline and dopamine. So alterations in these chemicals cause alteration in mood, this is a known fact, its how our antidepressant drugs work. Please feel free to check this out. Now Dopamine stimulation with a dopamine agonist is used to treat resistant depression and to rapidly improve peoples mood if they are suicidal for example. So more dopamine = happy, less dopamine = depressed.

So now if you can associate this with my previous post you should be able to come to some conclusions...like that high glutamate levels can potentially in some people cause some depressive symptoms.

Hawker

But studies have shown that blood levels of glutamine do not massively increase even after dosages of 10Grams in water.

hawker1986 · 12 Jul 2009 at 23:42

Well thats fine AcidHell2 im not saying everyone is affected badly or anything, but some people will be more sensitive than others and can be affected, thats all im trying to say here, are you telling me that nobody is more sensitive than that study has shown? I have no idea the study your refering too...how many people were in it?

Hawker

Glaucus · 12 Jul 2009 at 23:44

hawker1986 said:
Well thats fine AcidHell2 im not saying everyone is affected badly or anything, but some people will be more sensitive than others and can be affected, thats all im trying to say here, are you telling me that nobody is more sensitive than that study has shown? I have no idea the study your refering too...how many people were in it?

Hawker

the link is quoted a few posts above.

As I said there is very few true studies of double blind standards.

Of course people will be more sensitive than others. But he general censuses is. That teh amounts needed to do series harm are absolutely massive.

JBuk · 12 Jul 2009 at 23:44

hawker1986 said:
Im going to assume that youll do one of those and get that far, now mood is affected by 3 main chemicals; serotonin, noradrenaline and dopamine. So alterations in these chemicals cause alteration in mood, this is a known fact, its how our antidepressant drugs work. Please feel free to check this out. Now Dopamine stimulation with a dopamine agonist is used to treat resistant depression and to rapidly improve peoples mood if they are suicidal for example. So more dopamine = happy, less dopamine = depressed.

So now if you can associate this with my previous post you should be able to come to some conclusions...like that high glutamate levels can potentially in some people cause some depressive symptoms.

Hawker

But it only seems to be you who is drawing conclusions that msg is a depressant , I can't find any evidence of that anywhere

There are some articles that say high glutamine levels in the brain are associated with neuropsychological deterioration but none that say consuming msg has the same affect

hawker1986 · 12 Jul 2009 at 23:48

AcidHell2 said:
the link is quoted a few posts above.

As I said there is very few true studies of double blind standards.

Of course people will be more sensitive than others. But he general censuses is. That teh amounts needed to do series harm are absolutely massive.

This I agree with entirely, im not talking about any serious harm, all im saying is that its a depressant and can cause headaches, neither of which is the equivalent of serious harm yes?

JBuk said:
But it only seems to be you who is drawing conclusions that msg is a depressant , I can't find any evidence of that anywhere

There are some articles that say high glutamine levels in the brain are associated with neuropsychological deterioration but none that say consuming msg has the same affect

Plenty of people here are saying it, im the only one trying to substantiate it with some actual theory, you guys seem to think im saying that MSG is going to give people full blown depression, im not, im just saying it has a depressant effect, ie you might feel a bit low and have some headaches, if you eat a ****load of it.

Hawker

Glaucus · 12 Jul 2009 at 23:51

hawker1986 said:
This I agree with entirely, im not talking about any serious harm, all im saying is that its a depressant and can cause headaches, neither of which is the equivalent of serious harm yes?

and has been said. Headaches there is a lose link as shown in a double blind trial. With some 20% showing symptoms on both MSG and placebo. With the MSG group slightly higher.

Yet no trial I can find has any link to depression. Coupled with further evidence that even high abuse dosages does not significantly raide blood levels. Calls into question any link with depression.

oli collett · 12 Jul 2009 at 23:52

hawker1986 said:
Im going to assume that youll do one of those and get that far, now mood is affected by 3 main chemicals; serotonin, noradrenaline and dopamine. So alterations in these chemicals cause alteration in mood, this is a known fact, its how our antidepressant drugs work. Please feel free to check this out. Now Dopamine stimulation with a dopamine agonist is used to treat resistant depression and to rapidly improve peoples mood if they are suicidal for example. So more dopamine = happy, less dopamine = depressed.

So now if you can associate this with my previous post you should be able to come to some conclusions...like that high glutamate levels can potentially in some people cause some depressive symptoms.

Hawker

You still don't seem to get it.
Here's a review on MSG
don't know if that one was posted earlier or not. The point is, you have a hypothesis. It's the same kind of hypothesis that people use to make assumptions like "hmm, antioxidants, they are good aren't they, so if we get loads of vitamins, we'll stop cancer, right?". Yeah, let's just forget research and evidence, and go with theory.

Chemical levels - I have checked this out - looks like another case of nice theory, but the evidence doesn't match up. You might want to have a look at some of the literature:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/u37j12152n826q60/
http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0020392

Mind hacks has a good summary here:
http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2005/05/is_depression_a_brai.html

It is clear from the scientific literature that a purely biological theory of mental illness is not sufficient to explain and treat the experience of mental distress. Furthermore, simplified theories, that argue, for example, that depression is 'caused by low serotonin' are lacking in support and best avoided.

Psychological factors are equally important as biological factors in both the treatment and understanding of mental distress. Denying one or the other will undoubtedly slow scientific progress and lead to further misunderstanding of ourselves and each other.

More here:
http://www.dbskeptic.com/2009/05/03/anti-depressants-and-the-placebo-effect/

hawker1986 · 13 Jul 2009 at 00:00

OK, well I know that im giving you a hypothesis, but there are plenty of studies showing that SSRIs, SNRIs and Dopamine agonists have an effect beyond that of placebo in treating patients with depression, if you cant find them then you need to look harder. It is a fact that these drugs working on these chemicals in the brain improve patients symptoms. The inner workings of the brain are nothing more than hypothesis, but those are the best things we have to work with atm, your not showing me anything that disproves what ive said, and im not suggesting that people should be treated merely with drugs, that is not the way depression works, but then again thats not the issue here, we are talking simply about the biological effects of these chemicals.

Hawker

Glaucus · 13 Jul 2009 at 00:03

hawker1986 said:
OK, well I know that im giving you a hypothesis, but there are plenty of studies showing that SSRIs, SNRIs and Dopamine agonists have an effect beyond that of placebo in treating patients with depression, if you cant find them then you need to look harder. It is a fact that these drugs working on these chemicals in the brain improve patients symptoms. The inner workings of the brain are nothing more than hypothesis, but those are the best things we have to work with atm, your not showing me anything that disproves what ive said.

Hawker

But can you find any trials that link msg to these conditions. Not just "supporting" evidence.

oli collett · 13 Jul 2009 at 00:04

hawker1986 said:
OK, well I know that im giving you a hypothesis, but there are plenty of studies showing that SSRIs, SNRIs and Dopamine agonists have an effect beyond that of placebo in treating patients with depression, if you cant find them then you need to look harder. It is a fact that these drugs working on these chemicals in the brain improve patients symptoms. The inner workings of the brain are nothing more than hypothesis, but those are the best things we have to work with atm.

Hawker

I've posted reviews of this "evidence" and now you're telling me that I'm not looking hard enough, yet you've posted nothing?

cochrane review for you:
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004851.html

Caution is required to interpret the results. First, there were methodological issues, including high attrition, issues regarding measurement instruments and clinical usefulness of outcomes, often variously defined across trials. Second, patients seen in clinical practice are likely to be more unwell, and at greater risk of suicide, compared to those in the trials, and it is unclear how this group would respond to SSRIs. This needs to be considered, along with the evidence of an increased risk of suicide related outcomes in those treated with SSRIs. It is unclear what the effect of SSRIs is on suicide completion. While untreated depression is associated with the risk of completed suicide and impacts on functioning, it is unclear whether SSRIs would modify this risk in a clinically meaningful way.

hawker1986 · 13 Jul 2009 at 00:05

No not from here, I believe there have been some done, but like I said I cant check that out till im back on the hospital system, hell i cant even remember how good they were. But even if hasnt been trialled doesnt mean its possibility should be ignored.

hawker1986 · 13 Jul 2009 at 00:06

oli collett said:
I've posted reviews of this "evidence" and now you're telling me that I'm not looking hard enough, yet you've posted nothing?

cochrane review for you:
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004851.html

Thats for children, the damn things are contraindicated in those under 16 because they can cause suicidal ideation.

Edit: Ok ive just got my clinical evidence book out, by the BMJ so highly reputable and gives this sort of information you are after, and there are pages of it but let me take a few words on SSRIs and other antidepressants for you based on "systematic reviews and subsequent RCTs" these drugs are "effective for treatment of all grades of depression compared with placebo" and "in those with severe depression show an increased proportion who responded at 4-6 weeeks" "a reduction in people who failed to recover over 26-49 days compared with placebo"

JBuk · 13 Jul 2009 at 00:14

As I understand it from reading a few articles there is evidence that drugs used as a glutamate receptor antagonist can help people suffering mental health problems

there is no indication though that MSG is a depressant

hawker1986 · 13 Jul 2009 at 00:17

But since MSG is essentially glutamate and blocking glutamate can improve mental health conditions including depression, you cant see a possible (potential) link?

edit: as much fun as this debate is

, im tired so im going to bed. Have a good night.

Hawker

JBuk · 13 Jul 2009 at 00:24

hawker1986 said:
But since MSG is essentially glutamate and blocking glutamate can improve mental health conditions including depression, you cant see a possible (potential) link?

edit: as much fun as this debate is , im tired so im going to bed. Have a good night.

Hawker

I think you're over simplifying it, inhibiting glutamate receptors may help but does'nt mean that the glutamate levels are the direct cause. Also eating glutamate does not mean there will be a huge increase in the brain. It's merely speculation after speculation.

Monkey Puzzle · 13 Jul 2009 at 01:55

frosty03 said:
It actually tickles the glutamate receptors on your tongue.... which makes it "taste nice"....

Umamitastic!

It's not a depressant; glutamate is the brains most abundant excitatory neurotransmitter.