more crackdowns on contractors expected

[Bear]

But isnt the issue that Bear says that with the salary offered and location, you can't recruit a permie and he wouldn't travel/relocate for that money yet the same company is prepared to pay double/triple for a contractor to do that job for 6/7 years because they can't get a permie to which Bear is perfectly happy to travel each week?

I didn't say that at all, I wouldn't relocate because my wife is in a very well paid (earns more than me) job that is relatively local so I wouldnt move and leave her for a permie job. I also wouldn't travel as the costs of commuting and local digs would eat into my permie salary as you can understand.

Part of the problem is a skills shortage for the type of work I do, and yes part of the problem is the salary on offer but then I live in the south east, so my expectations Is probably higher although Edinburgh isn't cheap either. You also have to consider that moving that far north could be a problem for some as it puts a considerable distance to friends and family.

 

[Bear]

I'm fairly sure Bear works in the same place I do (but I'm a perm).

As Bear says, the experienced perms are part of a small national pool which has largely left Scotland and then you add in all the other requirements and it gets harder to do.

Wow small world, it certainly sounds like the same place. I think what's worrying is that there seems to be very senior members of staff across all departments retiring virtually every week without people of the same level replacing them.

 

[bloodiedathame]

Wow small world, it certainly sounds like the same place. I think what's worrying is that there seems to be very senior members of staff across all departments retiring virtually every week without people of the same level replacing them.

Get back to work.

 

[Bear]

Is the drive at women specifically not to redress the perceived gender pay gap? Rather than shortage of skills?

No I don't think so although it may be a secondary effect. If you cant train and employ enough engineers which are predominately male, then why not open up another large source of potential and try and entice women to consider engineering as a career?

 

[Bear]

Get back to work.

Haha I work a 4 day week Monday to Thursday, besides the firm has a half day on Fridays

 

[Greebo]

I didn't say that at all, I wouldn't relocate because my wife is in a very well paid (earns more than me) job that is relatively local so I wouldnt move and leave her for a permie job. I also wouldn't travel as the costs of commuting and local digs would eat into my permie salary as you can understand.

Part of the problem is a skills shortage for the type of work I do, and yes part of the problem is the salary on offer but then I live in the south east, so my expectations Is probably higher although Edinburgh isn't cheap either. You also have to consider that moving that far north could be a problem for some as it puts a considerable distance to friends and family.

But that's what I meant and you have confirmed it. The permie rate of pay isnt enough for you to commute but the contractor rate is. If they offered enough as a permie rate then they would find somebody for the position, maybe even you.

They you would be an employee (which I think you should be btw) and everybody including the Treasury would be happy

 

[Bear]

But that's what I meant and you have confirmed it. The permie rate of pay isnt enough for you to commute but the contractor rate is. If they offered enough as a permie rate then they would find somebody for the position, maybe even you.

They you would be an employee (which I think you should be btw) and everybody including the Treasury would be happy

As I have said already, the rolled up cost for a permie compared with a contractor isn't as large as you think it only seems large if all you look at is the headline rate.

The treasury gets a pretty large sum off me every year and I pay more tax now than I ever have done as a permie

 

[ianh]

If they offered enough as a permie rate then they would find somebody for the position, maybe even you.

So then a permie would be paid the same or similar rate as a contractor?

A permie on a contractors wage (or close to it) will cost the company much more (pension, sick, leave etc) overall. There's more to a companies wage packet than just the persons take home pay.

The basic fact is that, if it was a simple as "just pay permies more" then there would be no need for contractors. However contractors are used everywhere is so your logic, as much as it makes sense to you, doesn't work in the real world unfortunately.

 

[platypus]

No I don't think so although it may be a secondary effect. If you cant train and employ enough engineers which are predominately male, then why not open up another large source of potential and try and entice women to consider engineering as a career?

I'd have thought that having a drive to get everyone more interested would have helped, rather than focusing specifically on women? I mean there are an awful lot of men who wouldn't consider engineering.

 

[Greebo]

So then a permie would be paid the same or similar rate as a contractor?

A permie on a contractors wage (or close to it) will cost the company much more (pension, sick, leave etc) overall. There's more to a companies wage packet than just the persons take home pay.

The basic fact is that, if it was a simple as "just pay permies more" then there would be no need for contractors. However contractors are used everywhere is so your logic, as much as it makes sense to you, doesn't work in the real world unfortunately.

I'm not saying the same, just a lot more. I know that with add on costs a permie on £50k will cost £70 to £75k to the company but then that company is then "happy" to pay a contractor £100k+ inc expenses for several years cause they can't recruit a permie on 50k yet wont increase the rate on offer for the permie position. Makes no sense to me.

Like I said my gf was paid way more than a permie would get paid for 3-4 years even accounting the true cost of a permie.

 

[Electroshadow]

Some more details here: http://www.contractoruk.com/news/0012310leaked_ir35_plan_hit_psc_contractors_confirmed.html

Seems there could be an online test you have to perform to prove you are outside of IR35, and they will record the outcome. The client also has to check this apparently. Seems pretty confusing at the moment.

problem is this is easily sorted as its written out in the contracts, due to the fact that the recruitment agencies are the contractor to the end client. and the actual worker is a contractor to the recruitment agency if ltd company. If the worker is through an umbrella company then the umbrella company is the contractor to the agency and the worker is classed as an employee of the umbrella company, all very confusing and clever.

I have done contract work since 2003 and since the AWR regulations came in, I have found it a lot less hassle to work through an umbrella compared to running my own ltd company.


as other have stated it just the way all engineering fields are nowadays I work in civil engineering and if I was to go perm I would be taking a 50k pay cut. and no one is going to do that. The industry could probably run with all engineers being contract and only managers being perm employees. I know some of the company's that I have worked for will employee a contractor for 6 months or more and then they can withdraw that job vacancy and class it as a company saving an just employ contractors as and when different projects require the skill set. LEAN working can be blamed for this....

 

[grumpysculler]

But that's what I meant and you have confirmed it. The permie rate of pay isnt enough for you to commute but the contractor rate is. If they offered enough as a permie rate then they would find somebody for the position, maybe even you.

As I said earlier in the thread, most of our contractors are there to provide flexibility in the headcount. We are short of perms, but not by very much (depending on who you ask - everyone wants more engineers until you ask for a charge number to pay for them!). We arguably have the wrong mix of skills and the age demographic is a bit worrying.

We have ~40 contractors on a site of 2000. That isn't really all that many. I work very closely with two guys who manage all of the electronics contractors so I think I get a good view of the situation.

Something like half our staff are over 50. We are doing pretty well at recruiting and retaining grads. There are very few people in the forties and only slightly more in their mid-30s. Once you get down to 30 and under there are significantly more people. The problem here is that the people we want are married with kids and don't like to move. As they aren't local, it's tough to get them. We get a few every year. We could do with a few more.

Salaries are broadly competitive locally (albeit perhaps at the lower end of the ranges). I have looked plenty and couldn't really move to a similar role on any more money. There are plenty of problems with the pay structure, but the headline rates for recruitment aren't really it. It is far more complex.

To highlight the problem, I'm in my mid thirties and lead a project where everyone else is either under 25 or over 50.

 

[Bear]

everyone wants more engineers until you ask for a charge number to pay for them!).

Now I know we work in same place for sure

 

[Jokester]

Keep calm and carry on?

 

[bloodiedathame]

I had a quick flick through the statement and couldn't see anything about this.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Nothing was announced.?

 

[Bear]

Keep calm and carry on?

I think so, I have had a good look at the news but nothing has been mentioned so far.

 

[danielanthony]

I think so, I have had a good look at the news but nothing has been mentioned so far.

The dreaded IR35
Contractors appear to have dodged a bullet on IR35, with only a brief mention of the scheme in the blue book.
IR35, which was designed to tackle bogus self-employment, is a crackdown on the tax relief for travel and subsistence costs of freelancers and contractors.
There were fears that there would be fundamental changes to the rules, which come in next year, making it even more difficult to claim tax back if you are employed through a personal service company.
"The ‘sky blue book’ of the Autumn Statement was silent on IR35," said Chris Sanger, head of tax policy at EY. "However, this is more of a short reprieve as the results of the consultation over the summer are considered and we may yet face stark changes in the forthcoming Budget.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/autumn-statement/12016340/Autumn-Statement-2015-What-it-means-for-small-businesses.html

 

[dowie]

yeah it seems contracting is safe.... well for the moment at least

http://www.contractoruk.com/news/0012320osborne_omits_plan_payroll_psc_contractors.html

Contractors are breathing a sigh of relief after a much-feared plan to put Personal Service Companies on the payroll failed to hatch at Autumn Statement 2015, delivered earlier today.

The chancellor’s only swipe at PSCs is at AS chapter 3.20, where he reminds that their tax relief on travel and subsistence expenses will be restricted, as it will for umbrella contractors.

Lisa Keeble of Contractor Umbrella reflected: “The only relevant announcement for contracting in the AS was the restriction of T&S relief, which we already knew about”.

 

[Bear]

yeah it seems contracting is safe.... well for the moment at least

Tbh I expect things with change for contractors in the near future as we are obviously on their radar, I just hope it will be more sensible than the proposals in the OP.