More F1 splits

GeezerButler · 15 Sep 2017 at 18:30

Given that Aston Martin are partnered with AMG for road car engines and Daimler AG is a part owner of Aston I would assume MissChief is correct and it will be an AM branded Mercedes engine.

Steampunk · 15 Sep 2017 at 18:36

GeezerButler said:
Given that Aston Martin are partnered with AMG for road car engines and Daimler AG is a part owner of Aston I would assume MissChief is correct and it will be an AM branded Mercedes engine.

Will the Mercedes F1 team have something to say about that? When the Renault/RBR split looked imminent a year or two back, Mercedes refused to supply RBR as they could take wins off Mercedes with a decent engine.

andicole0 · 15 Sep 2017 at 18:37

Yes no one's going to develop an engine for 2 years. I suspect Red Bull will be Honda driven for 2019/2020 then we'll see a V8 naturally aspirated AM engine in 2021, along with a Porsche, Cosworth etc.
Andi.

andicole0 · 15 Sep 2017 at 18:51

Hmm Horner did effectively rule out Honda, Renault and Porsche. I am now intrigued to see what AM could get away with.
Andi.

lunarwolf · 15 Sep 2017 at 19:45

andicole0 said:
Hmm Hornet did effectively rule out Honda, Renault and Porsche. I am now intrigued to see what AM could get away with.
Andi.

I do not believe for 1 second that Aston Martin will be in f1 by 2019. they have no experience in F1, they do not have the budget to be an engine supplier in F1, there is no time between now and 2019 to develop a competitive engine or build a team, do they even build engines? I seriously doubt we will see any new engine supplier in F1 before the rule changes scheduled for 2021

MissChief · 15 Sep 2017 at 20:31

lunarwolf said:
I do not believe for 1 second that Aston Martin will be in f1 by 2019. they have no experience in F1, they do not have the budget to be an engine supplier in F1, there is no time between now and 2019 to develop a competitive engine or build a team, do they even build engines? I seriously doubt we will see any new engine supplier in F1 before the rule changes scheduled for 2021

That's why everyone is very confused and curious about Horner's statement.

lunarwolf · 16 Sep 2017 at 04:48

It will be fun to see the battle for last places next year between Sauber Ferrari and Torro Rosso Honda.

I think Leclerc will school Kvyat and Gasly, who will be racing Ericsson for last place. In fact Leclerc vs Haas could be quite an interesting battle

Alibaba99 · 16 Sep 2017 at 08:04

andicole0 said:
Yes no one's going to develop an engine for 2 years. I suspect Red Bull will be Honda driven for 2019/2020 then we'll see a V8 naturally aspirated AM engine in 2021, along with a Porsche, Cosworth etc.
Andi.

Or a twin turbo v6 with kinetic recovery or something else. No one knows what the rules will be yet.

Flibster · 16 Sep 2017 at 10:29

If they go back to a V8 then I'd fully expect F1 to lose Mercedes, Renault and Honda from the sport.

I wouldn't be surprised at all by a 4 or 5 cylinder forced induction engine. More likely staying with the V6 though.

andicole0 · 16 Sep 2017 at 10:44

Interestingly Christian didn't rule out a Ferrari engine did he?
Andi.

Ryan-3 · 16 Sep 2017 at 11:21

They used to power Toro Rosso, but won't power RB in the same way Merc won't. Horner's statement is simply a way of creating intrigue while they sort something behind the scenes.

Flibster · 16 Sep 2017 at 12:15

andicole0 said:
Interestingly Christian didn't rule out a Ferrari engine did he?
Andi.

Ryan-3 said:
They used to power Toro Rosso, but won't power RB in the same way Merc won't. Horner's statement is simply a way of creating intrigue while they sort something behind the scenes.

Red Bull used Ferrari engines in 2006. Cosworth in 2005. Ferrari engine was handed over to Toro Rosso in 2007 and Red Bull went to Renault, and pretty much bitched about them ever since....

Ryan-3 · 16 Sep 2017 at 12:19

I was referring more to their recent years, and especially with RB's success at the end of the NA era. Ferrari & Merc aren't going to supply a team to compete directly against themselves, but wouldn't mind supplying the midfield teams.

But as you say, RB have bitched about Renault since the start of their partnership, so it's little wonder that Renault have decided to move them on.

andicole0 · 16 Sep 2017 at 12:35

Ryan-3 said:
I was referring more to their recent years, and especially with RB's success at the end of the NA era. Ferrari & Merc aren't going to supply a team to compete directly against themselves, but wouldn't mind supplying the midfield teams.

But as you say, RB have bitched about Renault since the start, so it's little wonder they're wanting to move them on.

I understood it was Renault who called for an end after 2018.
Andi.

MissChief · 16 Sep 2017 at 13:18

andicole0 said:
Yes no one's going to develop an engine for 2 years. I suspect Red Bull will be Honda driven for 2019/2020 then we'll see a V8 naturally aspirated AM engine in 2021, along with a Porsche, Cosworth etc.
Andi.

Alibaba99 said:
Or a twin turbo v6 with kinetic recovery or something else. No one knows what the rules will be yet.

Flibster said:
If they go back to a V8 then I'd fully expect F1 to lose Mercedes, Renault and Honda from the sport.

I wouldn't be surprised at all by a 4 or 5 cylinder forced induction engine. More likely staying with the V6 though.

I seriously doubt F1 will have another large capacity naturally aspirated engine ever again. And the current rumour is the same 1.6L V6 but with twin turbos rather than a single one, no MGU-H (although there is a growing opinion about keeping it but I can't see it) but with a bigger MGU-K to offset the loss of power without the MGU-H.

Ryan-3 · 16 Sep 2017 at 14:55

andicole0 said:
I understood it was Renault who called for an end after 2018.
Andi.

I've edited it as my english failed and it did indeed sound like it was the other way round.

englishpremier · 16 Sep 2017 at 18:55

drunkenmaster said:
Not sure what your point is, Alonso's response to Ferrari winning races was, winning races doesn't matter, winning championships does. I've seen zero analysts anywhere suggests Renault is expected to be at Ferrari level on the engine next year and there is no reason to believe so. The 'law of diminishing returns' requires both a theoretical maximum and for someone to be drastically closer to it than another team, we have no idea where the limit is and people have been saying since 2014 that the teams would catch up to Mercedes, and since 2015 that Mclaren would catch quickly because of the law of diminishing returns. People use it incorrectly all over the place, Mercedes have shown zero diminishing returns in their per year performance gains. Each individual engine design has a limit on theoretical performance, meaning the diminishing returns available on the Renault concept could be far lower than that on the Ferrari or Merc concept meaning Renault will hit that law before the others.

The only race Renault have won, was when both Ferrari and Mercedes had severe penalties, without those penalties the Renault powered RBR was absolutely nowhere near winning.

Anyway the latest news is that Honda are buying a large stake into Toro Rosso which is what I suspected, rather than the assumption that Honda to TR meant RBR works team in 2019. It does now look like RBR might be forced to go Honda, but not via choice and not via some grand master plan to use TR as a way to get Honda to choose them(RBR) for a works team in 2019 or 2020 or something, it's because they seemingly told Renault they don't know what engine they want in 2019 onwards so Renault have used that as an excuse to tell them to do one.

I'm still not convinced some accord won't be reached because unless a genuine miracle happens next year Honda still won't be competitive or reliable enough for anyone to want to switch to them for performance reasons by 2019. I think RBR will stick with Renault but the deal will end up more favourable, like maybe Renault give them 40mil now for sponsorship but in 2019 it will be 15mil instead, so it might cost RBR a lot more money to get that engine. If they do get a Honda, it will be extremely bad for F1 to send a competitive team way down the grid.

Point is in your previous posts you made a quote of ""I don't care about second places, I came here for a chance to win again"."

You didn't say what it was to win, so I presume races. My point is that the Renault engine has won races and is predicted to be even stronger possibly on par with the top engines next year. McLaren also believe that they have the best or one of the best cars on the grid. All that adds up to a greater opportunity to win, whatever the win is.

Syla5 · 18 Sep 2017 at 14:17

gord said:
My surprise was his confidence in AM's ability to produce an engine for 2018. I mean, where is it going to come from?

I don't think anything was said at all about AM producing an engine for 2018. The conversation was around another car manufacturer coming in to the sport in some heightened capacity. Further interviews over the weekend with AM's CEO got to the point that AM are reviewing entering as an Engine Manufacturer in 2021 if the regulations sit well with them.

gord · 18 Sep 2017 at 15:47

Syla5 said:
I don't think anything was said at all about AM producing an engine for 2018. The conversation was around another car manufacturer coming in to the sport in some heightened capacity. Further interviews over the weekend with AM's CEO got to the point that AM are reviewing entering as an Engine Manufacturer in 2021 if the regulations sit well with them.

Ah, so who's engine are Red Bull planning to use for 2019 and 2020? Because that's what Brundle was getting at, the conversation was "you've lost Renault after 2018, are you going to use Honda or even Porsche" and CH pretty much directed everyone to the AM logo on his shirt. Which is why I made my post because I can only think this gives them some sort of way to having a Merc engine.

lunarwolf · 18 Sep 2017 at 16:14

gord said:
Ah, so who's engine are Red Bull planning to use for 2019 and 2020? Because that's what Brundle was getting at, the conversation was "you've lost Renault after 2018, are you going to use Honda or even Porsche" and CH pretty much directed everyone to the AM logo on his shirt. Which is why I made my post because I can only think this gives them some sort of way to having a Merc engine.

Horner has nothing interesting or promising to say so he is trying to be mysterious.

AM will be a title sponsor for Red Bull in 2018 and nothing more, basically a name change which I doubt will continue when Honda join them in 2019 unless Honda plan on buying AM https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/aston-martin-red-bull-title-sponsor-2018-954095/?s=1

As for AM providing a F1 engine in 2019 or 2021 in their current state, i call it pure BS. They are a barely profitable small car manufacturer who dont make engines. Their total revenue in 2016 was under £600M with £16M operating income. To give you an idea, it is estimated by some that Merc has spent 1 billion on current engine developement alone, this excludes the additional cost of the F1 team, chassis etc.... Even with a potential spending cap, AM are out of their depth. Simply put, AM do not have the cash, infrastructure or expertise to enter F1, unless some bigger fish like Honda or Merc bought them