Mortgage Overpayment Question

Valid point there

What i would do :
This year pay exactly 10% of the balance detailed as your opening balance at the start of the year.
If you pay any fees they will be negligable and you will know for next year to take the January payment into account.
You will then know if its case 1 or 2
1) Its 10% of the opening balance
2) Its 10% of the opening balance - Januarys payment

I would be happy to do the calculation for you annual for a fixed fee of only 50% of the £414 ;)
 
I am not sure why you would rather pay £414 in charges in stead of just make a 10 minute phone call once a year. The effective cost on your time is £311 per hour.

I just changed my direct debit amount on my mortgage and I don't even think it took me 10 minutes.

I think you've misunderstood. I'm not paying £414 instead of just making a 10 minute phone call. I did make a phone call, and it was only a couple of minutes to confirm what I thought was the case in the OP. I'm paying £414 in overpayment fees in order to pay the mortgage off in 7.5 years instead of more than 10 years, which is how long it would take if I reduce the overpayment every year to stay under the 10% and the extra interest on paying it off for longer is much more than the £414 fees.
 
I think you've misunderstood. I'm not paying £414 instead of just making a 10 minute phone call. I did make a phone call, and it was only a couple of minutes to confirm what I thought was the case in the OP. I'm paying £414 in overpayment fees in order to pay the mortgage off in 7.5 years instead of more than 10 years, which is how long it would take if I reduce the overpayment every year to stay under the 10% and the extra interest on paying it off for longer is much more than the £414 fees.

I don't think that is right. Your calculations are wrong somewhere.

You are basing it off the SVR which you should never be on so that is wrong for a start. Interest will be decreasing every year as your balance decreases so I think you are using a fixed rate of interest rather thank taking the over payments into account. Overpayment fees also usually decrease year on year, I don't know if you have taken that into account? What is your overpayment fee for year 1 will be much higher than year 2. Also overpayment fees stop after your "deal" rate stops. So if you are on a 3 year fix. You only get overpayment fees for 3 years when you go over the overpayment amount.

The big question here is. If you can afford to easily overpay by 10% of your mortgage every year and that is on top of your mortgage and all your other bills. Then do you not have plans to move to a better area or up-size? You can clearly afford to.
 
I don't think that is right. Your calculations are wrong somewhere.

You are basing it off the SVR which you should never be on so that is wrong for a start. Interest will be decreasing every year as your balance decreases so I think you are using a fixed rate of interest rather thank taking the over payments into account. Overpayment fees also usually decrease year on year, I don't know if you have taken that into account? What is your overpayment fee for year 1 will be much higher than year 2. Also overpayment fees stop after your "deal" rate stops. So if you are on a 3 year fix. You only get overpayment fees for 3 years when you go over the overpayment amount.

The big question here is. If you can afford to easily overpay by 10% of your mortgage every year and that is on top of your mortgage and all your other bills. Then do you not have plans to move to a better area or up-size? You can clearly afford to.

Overpayment fees (as in percentage) typically reduce annually
However as hes on the 10% of opening balance as his max overpayment type deal then the amount in £ can actually go up each year, as the amount extra he is paying off is increasing vs what hes allowed.

Without knowing his real numbers its very difficult to know if they are correct, but assuming hes been given correct numbers from the BS they will assume moving to SVR from fixed when applicable. So his fees should only relate to the period hes fixed for and hence the SVR is irrelevant as there will be no fee at that point in time.

Hes a bit unclear so its difficult to say for sure. Otherwise its an easy model.
 
it's very rare though for overpayment fees to be substantially less than the interest.

for example my overpayment fees are 5% in year 1 and decrease by 1% every year. it only makes sense to overpay over the overpayment amount in years 4 and 5 then. as that is when it's lower than the interest in fees. however you aren't saving much in interest.

say your interest rate on mortgage is 3% paying a 1% fee you are only saving 2% in interest and you are only saving it on whatever you overpay by over the overpayment amount.

so if he overpays by £200 over the overpayment amount he only saves £4 for 2 years max then £6 every year thereafter until his mortgage is finished if he was to stay at 3% however if he remortgages after that it's highly likely his new interest rate on mortgage is going to be lower due to lower LTV so if it drops to say 2% then again it's only £4 a year he is saving rather than £6.

basically overpayment fees are there so banks still make their "interest" one way or another.
 
Just don't aim to hit overpayment charges, find savings accounts to siphon off the excess overpayment in to, earn interest there to offset the interest charged on the mortgage, and then when you re-mortgage you pay a lump sum without charge and you are in the same net position.
 
Just don't aim to hit overpayment charges, find savings accounts to siphon off the excess overpayment in to, earn interest there to offset the interest charged on the mortgage, and then when you re-mortgage you pay a lump sum without charge and you are in the same net position.

this is probably the best way to do it. i already mentioned above he could make money by not overpaying at all. zopa for instance makes around 5% most mortgages these day are below 3% some even below 2%. the savings in interest isn't as big as some think but yes over time they do add up however if you are paying overpayment fee's they will be negligible.
 
it's very rare though for overpayment fees to be substantially less than the interest.

for example my overpayment fees are 5% in year 1 and decrease by 1% every year. it only makes sense to overpay over the overpayment amount in years 4 and 5 then. as that is when it's lower than the interest in fees. however you aren't saving much in interest.

say your interest rate on mortgage is 3% paying a 1% fee you are only saving 2% in interest and you are only saving it on whatever you overpay by over the overpayment amount.

so if he overpays by £200 over the overpayment amount he only saves £4 for 2 years max then £6 every year thereafter until his mortgage is finished if he was to stay at 3% however if he remortgages after that it's highly likely his new interest rate on mortgage is going to be lower due to lower LTV so if it drops to say 2% then again it's only £4 a year he is saving rather than £6.

basically overpayment fees are there so banks still make their "interest" one way or another.

Well yes and no.

Whilst the headline fee vs interest amount is close, its the compounding of the interest saved over many years that saves the money.
The longer the term thats being reduced the bigger the gain in paying asap vs later.

Fees don't also always decline in a linear fashion annually. Mine are fixed for first 5 then decline in years 6-10. However as I can pay down 10% of original amount as additional each year I pay this and no more.
I will actually clear my mortgage assuming I don't change plans again, before I technically come out of the early repayment period!

Your kind of right but not quite on the fees thing. For banks its clearer cut than BS who use their own funds.

Banks borrow the money to relend. So they are trying to maintain their margin with the fees, not their interest directly.

When you take a fixed term deal you are using this to hedge against interest rate rises, thats the basic fundamental reason for people to take them.
The banks will pay a higher rate to borrow the money for longer term just like you or I.
The whole issue with the credit crisis was everyone stopped lending to everyone else. It literally took the government to make money available so that lenders would start lending again.
At that point virtually everyone was getting turned down, LTV being whatever %, etc made no diff.
You only had to look at savings rates right then to see the issue, you could get 2-4% more on savings than the base rate. Why? Because the banks had capital flow issues.

The fees for coming out of fixed term deals are to stop people repeatedly skipping when the banks themselves have tied in borrowing. Its by no means their only issue but its the main driving force, they want to come out beneficial of course its all a gamble for them as well, its just a little more skewed in their favour than yours.

There is just as much chance when coming off a fixed rate you could end up on a higher one, or worse case not even be able to get one.
In 10 years we have gone from medium rates and very very very low capital availability to ultra low rates and high capital availability, it could just as easily be back to the previous position in 5 years, it could stay the same, who knows, any future prediction of rates and availability is just speculation, and with some knowledge, partly educated guessing.
 
Well yes and no.

Whilst the headline fee vs interest amount is close, its the compounding of the interest saved over many years that saves the money.
The longer the term thats being reduced the bigger the gain in paying asap vs later.

Fees don't also always decline in a linear fashion annually. Mine are fixed for first 5 then decline in years 6-10. However as I can pay down 10% of original amount as additional each year I pay this and no more.
I will actually clear my mortgage assuming I don't change plans again, before I technically come out of the early repayment period!

Your kind of right but not quite on the fees thing. For banks its clearer cut than BS who use their own funds.

Banks borrow the money to relend. So they are trying to maintain their margin with the fees, not their interest directly.

When you take a fixed term deal you are using this to hedge against interest rate rises, thats the basic fundamental reason for people to take them.
The banks will pay a higher rate to borrow the money for longer term just like you or I.
The whole issue with the credit crisis was everyone stopped lending to everyone else. It literally took the government to make money available so that lenders would start lending again.
At that point virtually everyone was getting turned down, LTV being whatever %, etc made no diff.
You only had to look at savings rates right then to see the issue, you could get 2-4% more on savings than the base rate. Why? Because the banks had capital flow issues.

The fees for coming out of fixed term deals are to stop people repeatedly skipping when the banks themselves have tied in borrowing. Its by no means their only issue but its the main driving force, they want to come out beneficial of course its all a gamble for them as well, its just a little more skewed in their favour than yours.

There is just as much chance when coming off a fixed rate you could end up on a higher one, or worse case not even be able to get one.
In 10 years we have gone from medium rates and very very very low capital availability to ultra low rates and high capital availability, it could just as easily be back to the previous position in 5 years, it could stay the same, who knows, any future prediction of rates and availability is just speculation, and with some knowledge, partly educated guessing.

you are basing on never repaying what you would have overpaid by taking you into an over-payment fee position.

as soon as his deal ends. whatever he overpays for extra above his allowance. he could overpay then and have no fees. as the plan was to overpay it anyway but he didn't want to pay the fees.

very rarely does it make sense to pay the overpayment fees. overpay when fees no longer apply. therefore you still get the interest savings.
 
Sorry you just aren't getting it.

Lets take a simple example I happen to have to hand ;)

£20k for 5 years at 3.1% will cost you £21,613 over 5 years.
So should you either overpay the £20k now or wait until year 5 ends.
The £20k is costing you £1,613 in interest.
Lets say its a 5 year deal you have literally just taken out and now decide to pay your £20k (after tax) bonus down on, you are already making maximum overpayments
You have a 5% penalty. So you would be charged £1000 today to pay off the £20k or wait and pay off the £20k in 5 years.
Its technically a bit more then the £1000 cost as if you had literally £20k now you would in fact only pay down, £19k due to the fee so you would be stuck with £1k to pay off, but I am trying to keep the example simple.
I would have to tweak one of the models to get the exact saving and I can't be bothered.

Of course we are not discounting the cashflows so that would also reduce the benefit, but in hard monetary terms its there.

Also ZOPA, best is targetted at around 4.6% now and thats in a distinctly risky product with no safeguard.
Far better would be ratesetter 5 year which is typically above 5% attainable within a day or 2, and also comes with the provision fund.
With ZOPA your risk is individual so you may get lucky or you may crap out, (check out the independant p2p forum for how bad ZOPA can be for even some large investors). RS is pooled in that they will reduce interest rates in order to maintain the provision fund.
As a ZOPA and RS investor the current offering from RS is clearly significantly better, although with the recent changes in rolling I believe RS will move closer to the ZOPA model over time, where they decide the rate not you.
Also bear in mind this is PRE tax and as such for a higher rate tax payer the 5% is in fact basically 3%, unless its a small investment or you choose not to declare the interest.
 
Doh just thought the additional cost due to the £1k remaining is 1/20x£1613 or £81
So cost to pay off £20k today is £1081 vs leaving to term of £1613

Also, forgot to say the £20k number above is based on a repayment as I was looking into an early lump sum vs a sustained extra payment scenario for someone.

If it was literally pay £20k now with 5% penalty or pay 3.1% interest on it for 5 years it would cost you obviously £20k x 5 x 3.1% = £3100 to just sit on the outstanding to try to avoid the ERP
 
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I don't think that is right. Your calculations are wrong somewhere.

You are basing it off the SVR which you should never be on so that is wrong for a start. Interest will be decreasing every year as your balance decreases so I think you are using a fixed rate of interest rather thank taking the over payments into account. Overpayment fees also usually decrease year on year, I don't know if you have taken that into account? What is your overpayment fee for year 1 will be much higher than year 2. Also overpayment fees stop after your "deal" rate stops. So if you are on a 3 year fix. You only get overpayment fees for 3 years when you go over the overpayment amount.

The big question here is. If you can afford to easily overpay by 10% of your mortgage every year and that is on top of your mortgage and all your other bills. Then do you not have plans to move to a better area or up-size? You can clearly afford to.

I'm not basing it off SVR. My calculations use our fixed rate of 2.54% until the end of 2022. I've just done my sums again and we'd be paying off an extra £17k over the 5 years to save £243.10 (net interest less fees). So the only reason to do that is to pay it off earlier, not from an interest savings perspective. From a cashflow perspective it probably is better for us to save that separately instead and reduce our overpayments in line with the 10% limit every year.

Then at the end of the 5 years, if we have enough savings to pay off the difference in one go we will otherwise we'll refix for another term depending on the rate we can get. That'll be on a closing balance of £70k.

Regarding why we're overpaying - we just want to be mortgage free. We're already in a nice area, close to both our work locations, big enough for us. We have no need to take on more debt just to get a nicer house. That would then allow us to enjoy ourselves whilst we're still young. If I'm mortgage free before I'm 35, that'd be awesome. We may then decide to get a bigger house, but we'll have much lower borrowing requirements in order to do so.
 
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