MSI Z690-A WIFI vs B660 Mortar Max

Alexrose1uk

Alexrose1uk

Alexrose1uk

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Hi Guys

Hoping someone can help make my final mind up here as I'm about to pull the trigger.

Essentially, I can order the Z690-A Wifi on a nice deal, at a nice price, and it has all the Z690 things (even if its entry level Z690 so its not AS good as the higher end boards), including 4 M.2 and extra PCI-E slots. Some of the M.2 might even not be right next to the GPU. It should also happily take Rocket Lake later if needed.
The Mortar Max costs £30 more due to the Cyber Monday, and I give up the 3rd PCI-E 16x slot, and the 2 extra M.2, but crucially it, will allow me to BCLK OC my 12400 up to maybe 5-5.2GHz, so avoid the need for an upgrade to Rocket Lake full stop potentially.

HELP ME :)

This is the only bit not ordered haha, and I need to make a decision before Cyber Monday ends :)
 
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From what you said it seems like the decision is: how much do you care about storage and PCI-E slots? If the answer is: not much, then the overclock is more important to you.

I haven't checked the lanes (what is shared with what), but I think you could use an adapter on the 2nd full length PCI-E to get one more M.2.
 
Yeah that is the difficult point, and I'm torn.
I only 'need' 2 M.2 right now, but having 2 more is always nice, especially as lower density drives are definitely cheaper than high density ones, and crucially they'd be floating around a 3080 which, well, they're hot lol and also might make the whole PCI-E card in the extra slot a little non-workable. The Z690 will also support multiplier overclocking if I did decide to drop a K chip in later.

The B660 would take away multiplier overclocking,but provide BCLK for Alder Lake, and it sounds like there is already a beta out which allows BCLK on a 13600K at the least, so I suspect more upgrades will come as more microcode workarounds are found for Comet Lake.
It's basically a case of the B660 is a board for NOW, it'd offer BCLK OC for the CPU, and essentially potentially cut the need for me to actually upgrade the system, maybe until 13th gen is no longer relevant, as if I can get the 12400 to 5GHz or higher, there's not going to be much on Comet or Rocket Lake that offers me much more for gaming. The Z690 is more of here's all the options for Comet or Rocket Lake, EXCEPT for being able to overclock the locked chips.

There is also the fact OC is always a gamble, but I suspect there'd definitely be at least a BIT in the tank with the 12400, even if it was a smaller amount than say 800MHz.

I'm erring towards the Mortar Max, I'm just a little torn on whether I'm paying the extra for a worthy gamble, especially as I lose the little premium extras of Z690 (albeit on a more entry level variant).

Realistically this machine will be replacing my rig in signature (the 10700k in that is essentially limited to 10700 like performance due to the OEM motherboard, and will be retiring to lighter duties where the reduced noise its AIO potentially brings will be more important), so the 12400 will already be about on par, but OC would definitely give the 3080 more room to stretch due to how much more IPC Comet Lake has.

The idea of making the baby 12400 sing on the stock cooler at around 5GHz via BCLK, assuming I didnt get a terrible 12400, is very tempting though and appeals to the old school overclocker in me!
 
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If future upgradability / viability is important then the choice is AM5, to be frank, so if you already have the 12400, I'd just go with the B660 and then expect to dump the lot when there's a much faster whole system available and you need more storage.
 
I do agree on that, I'd have been tempted to go down the AM5 path, but it just didn't make sense as I also already have a 32GB 3600C16 kit waiting for the last few months, and the additional hassle of selling that and trying to find reasonable DDR5...

AM4 was just a bit too passed it to appeal to me, being completely dead end. :)
 
I ended up going with the B660 Mortar Max. Sods law I'll get a crap OC'ing 12400, but if I can get it to 5-5.3GHz under the AK500 I ordered, it really should not be all that far behind a stock 13600K in games in some cases maybe even matching/beating it, whilst the platform cost will be over £100 less.

I ended up using some HUB average fps graphs from a recent video to work out the STOCK 12400 platform was actually slightly worse value based on cost per average frame, where it'd have made more sense to get a stock 13600K if I was going that route (as the 13600K is around 20-25% faster, ignoring productivity workloads); the OC'd 12400 actually won though on cost per frame assuming I don't get a crap OC'er, and I don't have the pros and cons of having to deal with e-cores.

Still umming and ahhing a little about whether to change my mind before it arrives, but there's nothing to stop me dropping Raptor Lake into this build in the future if it makes sense cost wise, honestly if the Mortar Max came in a Z690 basic version for a bit more money, I'd have gone for it in a heartbeat, but alas only the B660M.
 
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I heard about that mobo but had never actually seen it on sale in UK.

Let us know how the OC goes, it really is old school style overclocking so expect to reset cmos a lot :rolleyes:
 
Yeah, I've seen some videos, and have got a rough idea what to aim for (1.25-1.35V, 5-5.3GHz)

It's super old school, and yeah only sold in one place in the UK for about £220. Not cheap, but compared to the price to go from the 12400 at £180 to the 12600K at £300 or 13600K at 330-360... suddenly the maths starts to fall in place, even if the board costs about another £40 over the normal Mortar (it does have at least uprated Wifi adaptor and PCIe5 now but hey, overclocking is the real draw).

Seems like 5GHz all core is really not out the expected for 12400, albeit with a noticeable increase in power from around 80W full load to about 120-130W.

I will probably build the rig up, without my extra SSDs or proper GPU, get it stable, then transfer across from my old rig which will then retire into a HTPC/Lower use rig once I'm comfortable it's fine :)
 
Typically every single part of the build except for the processor itself is sitting there. I've not been well so this was going to be a little 'pep' project, and it appears processor is lost/delayed in post BF shipping mayhem. Hopefully today still or Monday.

Think my process will be to build the rig outside the case barebones with just the basics (RAM/primary SSD etc) using just onboard graphics (one of the reasons I paid extra for the non-F SKU as onboard graphics sometimes come in handy), once I have everything working nicely including OC, I'll transfer in the extra SSDs and GPU.

I'd rather avoid the hassle of installing it all into case etc only to find something doesn't work and needs replaced.

Need to do some research to see whether its worth sticking with Windows 10 or going to Windows 11 now also.
 
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Well processor arrived yesterday and I've had precious little time with the system but after an initial bit of false start issue which seems to be related to a bad cable connection (hopefully not port) via HDMI everything booted up quickly using the onboard graphics.

The unlocking feature seems to work perfectly so I'm actually rather afraid of updating the BIOS incase it breaks anything despite the BIOS notes mentioning some updates and RAM improvements.

Have installed a test install of Win 11, but once I'm happy the system is stable I will nuke the partitions and start afresh.

System booted immediately with XMP, so no headaches there, and booted immediately with the CPU/RAM bclk changed to trigger a 5GHz all core at 1.25v (stock is 4.4 single thread, 4ghz all core)


Pushing my luck a bit, 5.32Ghz also immediately booted however 5.4 seems to hit a voltage wall with a noticeable rise to even get into windows (shame as +1ghz all core over its stock single thread would have felt like a very round number...), and I don't think the extra voltage/heat is worth it for 100mhz. I've backed off back to 5.32 and am now seeing what voltage I actually need to get rock stable. I originally tried 1.275, for this however got a few blue screens during testing so from memory I'm currently at 1.29 and would really like to settle around there. I actually completely forgot to check LLC settings during my quick test build also so I will recheck that incase that will help me get stable at this or slightly lower voltage, I'm very much hoping I can get this clock stable and at 1.3 or under.

Cooler is a Deepcool AK500 and as far as I can see is typically under 80-85c at load, and very quiet. Not quite inaudible but damn, the very faint noise would make a lot of AIO blush, and I've essentially got it on a test bench so it should be even better in a case with 2x 140mm intakes and 1x 120mm fractal fans as outtake, providing they don't turn out to be noisy. Helps throwing a 200w cooler at a 125-175w problem I guess?! Will also help it deal with the heat of having a 3080 sitting below it!

Performance though I've only really run CPUz benchmark as quick tests, but the chip is a bit of a monster at these clocks, my old 10700k was hitting around 570-590 single thread, this is hitting 830-870 ST which is a pretty mad leap. Multithread is also double digits higher, despite the drop from 6 to 8 core. Performance wise it's single threaded in the region of a 12900k in this test (and other similar much more expensive chips) and very close to a 12600k in multithread (single digits) despite having absolutely no e-cores which is a bit mental.

When I next get a chance to work on it I'll be checking LLC and doing some further stability tests and benches, and if I'm happy that it seems to have gone stable with LLC manually configured and the current voltages, I'll get everything setup to do the fresh final install, transfer in my other SSDs and my 3080 and transplant it all into its new case.

Even if I do end up having to drop clocks a bit to get everything rock solid, I don't think I'm far off, and have to say it's pretty obvious Intel is absolutely kneecapping these chips in the name of efficiency, or more likely to justify the pricing of the higher end parts. 1GHz+/25%+ all core overclock, even if that's just booting and quick benching so far, really did bring back memories of the old days!
It's a shame the motherboard is £220, £40 over the normal B660 Mortar, but given the performance im looking at getting from my 'roided 12400, it's more than offset when looking at the price of equivalent chips.

valid.x86.fr

Intel Core i5 12400 @ 5319.32 MHz - CPU-Z VALIDATOR

[gigtur] Validated Dump by ALEX12400 (2022-12-06 11:20:51) - MB: MSI MAG B660M MORTAR MAX WIFI DDR4 (MS-7D97) - RAM: 32768 MB
valid.x86.fr valid.x86.fr

Either way, happy I went for this motherboard and terrified of updating the BIOS incase it breaks the unlock somehow, I am considering reaching out to MSI tech support just to make sure it won't cause any issues, and if it does, if its revertable.

Suspicion is it's also probably doing this all on very similar power consumption to the old 10700k, perhaps less, as I believe the 10700k uses around 200w fully loaded and I suspect I'm somewhere around 150w. Crazy.
 
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That is a very impressive performance boost. Certainly looks like Intel are sandbagging the lower cost cpus to help upsell the more expensive chips in the range.
 
Yep most definately. If I can get it locked in stable at 5.2/5.3 I'll be very happy, given its beating a stock 12900kf single thread in at least one bench. That is mental for a chip that cost me £184 delivered.

A 13600k would have given me similar single thread performance and better multithread (which wasnt my focus) for twice the money
 
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OK, so a bit of a further update, I had to walk back from 5.32GHz as it just required too much juice/cooling with this particular chip. I also discovered that 3600 on the memory was unfortunately not 100% stable on this chip, causing some issues until I dropped the memory speed back to closer to 3500. I had been aware prior to this all that that was a further issue with the non-K chips, as Intel had hidden and locked certain voltage controls away unless you had a K chip (and potentially Z-series motherboard), so had been aware that 3600 was no guarantee. A shame but no biggy, 3500->3600 won't really make any major difference, and I have it running C16 so latency is pretty decent, Aida put it at sub 50ms, which sounds pretty good!

The RAM issue was throwing me red herrings, and I almost walked it straight back to 5-5.15GHz but upon realising this (geekbench proved to be a perfect litmus test for this issue as it failed/bluescreened EVERY TIME if the memory was set too high). I was able to drop the vcore decently over where I had been testing previously and I BELIEVE I have managed to sneak in a cheeky 5.2 at 1.295 V (which the board essentially treats as 1.295-1.3v anyway). I can get into Windows with 1.25-1.275, but the system will bluescreen when thrown extended heavy loads like 30 minute cinebench cyles.

I didn't want to go above 1.3V, as with the overclock and voltage, even the reasonably potent AK500 is hitting thermal limits when I throw the likes of IBT, or pure looping multithread cinebench, but with 1.295, I seem to be both stable AND staying under 100 degrees even fully loaded on the test bench. I did an hour of linpack set to 2048MB data sets, and peak core temp across any core was 96, with cinebench multithread 30 minute loop coming in similarly around the 95 degree mark; anything that is not 100% maxing all the cores seems to be in the 70s under load, so absolutely fine, and no thermal throttling in a ~21 degree room.

Given I do not want to throw double the money at a stronger cooler, I think I'm going to be happy to stop here for now; adding something higher end than a £50 air cooler starts to defeat the point of overclocking the cheaper chip after all :)

Scores wise however this thing still absolutely CRUSHES other CPU's in terms of cost:performance in the performance metrics, bearing in mind I spent £185 delivered.
Cinebench R23 I'm looking at ~1940 on ST/16100 on MT
CPU-Z I'm looking at ~840 Single Core, 6500 MT
Geekbench - ~2050 ST / 11000-11200 MT
OCCT Bench - ST SSE 97 / MT SSE 621 / ST AVX 185 / MT AVX 1209

For comparison, my single thread performance is basically about the same as a 13600K/12900K. My multithread is in about 5% off a 12600K, despite not having any e-cores at all. Or to put it another way, ST is up almost 50% in some benchmarks compared to my 10700K, and double digits above it in Multithread, despite 6 v 8 cores, in fact my multithread performance is even above a 10 core 11900K in some benchmarks. Pretty crazy.

Realistically though, this is only the first battle. Now I'm relatively comfortable with the machine being stable or thereabouts on the test bench, I've got to transfer it into its new case, and also transfer my other SSDs and the 3080. This all means heat, albeit the fact the iGPU won't be being used most of the time, should also reduce CPU package heat a little. It'll have 2x 140mm front fans, and a 120mm exhaust, but I'm pretty prepared for the fact I'm going to need to run all the stress tests again due to the potential thermal changes!
 
The memory issues came back to haunt me during the obligatory memtest runs, the 3510 setting I was running kicked up a few errors.

Dropped memory speed now to 3457 and it now, touch wood, appears to be running fine with no errors detected. Slowly but surely I am getting ever closer to the 'stable' mark.

AKA the ready to finish physically building the system point.

The system has now passed multiple looped geekbench runs, 30 minutes cinebench multithread loops, an hour of linpack loops and more so I think I am genuinely close to the point of saying 'it's fine', hopefully without the fire as per the meme!

Due to discovering these memory errors, albeit only a few, once I am happily passing memtest, I may retest at slightly lower CPU voltage just incase any of the earlier bluescreen/fails were actually memory related and not just voltage, however I'll be honest, I think they were CPU, so I may just save my BIOS settings and have done, providing the retests inside the case with dGPU present do not change any of the results due to additional heat etc!
 
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Well, unfortunately the case results (with the 3080) did change the results a bit, so I dropped the clocks down to 5.1GHz (RAM ended up around 3440MHz).

This in turn seems to be more optimal for the chip in terms of heat output and voltage requirements as I've been able to drop the voltage down to 1.25, (approx 1.254 when LLC kicks in), and this in turn has dropped temps by a good 10 degrees. I've stuck the fractal case fans to around 75-80%, they're audible but considerably quieter than the build that came before so pretty happy!

Running some linpack on it now, providing the hour of that passes I'll move onto a memtest run overnight and assuming that all passes ok, I think she's golden to get a reinstall tomorrow, and see how it goes.

Honestly I think this chip could easily go further than I've taken it, but it'd need to be under water to do it, which is just not something I'm looking to do at the moment. With single core around 12900k levels, I don't suspect I'll need to look for more performance for some time, unless 8 cores starts offering noticeable benefits in newer titles. Crazy achievement for £400 of CPU and Motherboard, considering how much even an i5 k chip costs now.

valid.x86.fr

Intel Core i5 12400 @ 5099.6 MHz - CPU-Z VALIDATOR

[kqia2v] Validated Dump by ALEX12400 (2022-12-10 21:20:58) - MB: MSI MAG B660M MORTAR MAX WIFI DDR4 (MS-7D97) - RAM: 32768 MB
valid.x86.fr valid.x86.fr
 
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Hey, would you be willing to share the bios settings you used for your overclocks? More curious on specific bios settings needed to undertake / optimise the overclock, rather than the bus speed change itself.
Or are there any good guides for this specific motherboard you know of?
 
Hey bud, yes, next time I'm at my pc I'll try and remember to take some screenshots :) I ended up settling at 5GHz with the RAM at 3375 for stability/heat purposes.
Unfortunately not many decent guides as it's a fairly niche product, hardware unboxed and MSI have both done some YouTube vids though and there are probably more.
 
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Thanks a lot, much appreciated!

I'm tempted to do a new build with a i5 12400 and B660 Mortar Max seeing as I can get both for around £285 atm which seems like good value given the OC potential.
 
Yes, the boards with the external bclk generators which can do this really expose how much these lower level chips are kneecapped by Intel. 4GHz to 5GHz all core is a decent upgrade by any margin, and benchmarks put the chip now in the same region as the much more expensive and i7/i9, at least for stuff that doesn't need more cores or e-cores.

I would say however get a decent cooler if you go this route though which is an added expense, I have a Deepcool AK500, and under full stress test the chip does get toasty even at 5GHz. To go further/higher voltage, you really need something like a decent AIO or something else top end. I also couldn't run my ram higher without some random instability due to the memory controller chipset voltages being restricted on the non-k chips, but at 5GHz with the ram at 3375, I'm laughing.

With good enough cooling and a reasonable chip (and enough volts) I suspect many of these will happily do another couple hundred MHz at least, pretty sure from memory I was able to get mine to boot at 5.3Ghz but couldn't throw the volts or cooling to get it anywhere near stable.

The 13th gen chips are faster due to the higher clocks and such, but with current pricing, the 12400 and Bclk is a very tempting option.
 
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