Multiple Wired Speaker Controller...

Tiny Clanger

Tiny Clanger

Tiny Clanger

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Hi - looking for some help/advice on the following...

A neighbour of ours is in the process of renovating his home and, whilst he had the walls and ceilings plaster-free, had speaker and coax cable runs put in all over the place 'in case it came in handy'. So....he now has several sets of very nice ceiling mounted speakers cabled back to a single point in the house and now needs to work out the best way to set things up. And, as I haven't really got a clue I thought I'd venture a post here! ;)

What he ideally wants to be able to do is have a set up where he can play/stream different stuff to each zone and to be able to control all of this from an iPad. Is there a simple (or viable) solution for these requirements or is it all a bit too complex and require more manual control?

Thanks in advance for any replies,

TC
 
Ideally no more that ~£600 - however, if there's a simple and elegant solution which costs a little bit more I'm sure he would extend that a little bit... Hopefully, that should cover what's required - however, if you were to recommend a 'perfect' solution which was significantly more than this budget I suppose I could at least show him what the art of the possible was (if he was perpared to pay... :))
 
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£600 isn't enough to get a multi-source headend with enough current delivery to drive long cables, and also to include iPod/iPad control.
 
Ah - okay, what would be the minumum to get that sort of set up?

Or....for example, to control 2 sets of speakers could he get something like a Sonos Connect AMP - or is the power insufficinent to drive long cable runs?

Thanks once again for your help with this...
 
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It very much depends on what one considers 'acceptable'. I'm installing professionally so it's not acceptable to the client or me if the sound fades out with peaks in the music (we call it pumping); or there's distortion; or simply the system runs out of juice so you're on 100% volume and it still isn't loud enough. These things might be acceptable to a DIY'er though.

When spec'ing and installing a system I always start with the speakers. Better quality speakers are more efficient at turning amp Watts in to music Watts. A typical budget ceiling speaker might be 84-85dB efficient. Mine are 89-91dB. Doesn't sound like much of difference but it means I need just 1/4 of the amp Watts to be as loud as the cheaper speakers; and they sound much better too.

Have a look at our friends speakers. Check the dB rating.

Next is cable. Thicker cable means more power reaches the speakers. My minimum cross sectional area (CSA) for short runs (<10m) is 1.5mm squared. Whole house music is typically done with 2-2.5mm CSA. This is per wire, not positive and negative added together. If your friend is using bell wire or thin cable then they'll be losing power in the cable before it gets to each speaker.

Finally it is the amplifiers. Watts is not so important as current delivery as measured in electrical Amps (A). A high current amp keeps the sound going when there's big demands for power. That means an amp with a big heavy transformer and large capacitors. This is the opposite of the light weight digital amps inside the Sonos Connect Amp and your typical all-in-one home cinema kit and the budget T-amps. I tend to use a 12 channel (6x stereo pairs) multi-channel amp rated at 30W/ch (12x30W) but with a current swing of around 25 amps/ch. The rub is cost. These things run to around £1500 alone.

The original Sonos ZP100 used a conventional transformer and capacitor amp design. It was rated at 50W/ch and weighed 4.7kg. The newer Connect Amp weighs less than half that yet is rated at 55W/ch. Now I wasn't impressed with the sound of the old 50W version which had the better amp when feeding decent and efficient bookshelf speakers. So personally I wouldn't recommend running the new one down long cables to inefficient speakers that will be harder to drive. However, your friend might not have much of a choice.

What would bug me about running two Connect Amps is that there's no upgrade path. Those Sonos boxes don't have a line out like the small player-only connects. That means you can't add a decent amp as funds allow. I think I'd be tempted to look for some second-hand ZP100s as a stop-gap, then change to ZP90/Connects + power amps as funds allow. If you can find them, a couple of Rotel RB976 (6ch - 30w / 3off 2x30W stereo pairs) wouldn't be a bad start. Alternatively some old AV amp with a multichannel input, but you're still only driving 5 or maybe 7 mono speakers.
 
Okay - so.... the cable runs aren't especially long but the cable is cheap (not quite bell wire but not much better...).

Having had a look around could the solution be something like a Denon CEOL N8 or Marantz MCR 603 with a manual speaker switch? This would be relatively cheap (well, under £400 all up) and give the ability to switch (albeit manually) whilst streaming from an iPad/iPod (the apps for both Denon and Marantz look quite comprehensive....)

Any thoughs/comments gratefully received :)
 
Sure, you can use either of those.... but it's not what you originally said he wanted.

The original brief was to stream different music to each zone and control it all with an iPad. Neither the Marantz or Denon handle more than a single music stream. More importantly though, neither of those products offer an upgrade path towards multi-room music. They're a different solution going down a dead end road as far as his long term goal is concerned. "Dead end road" means dead money too if he wants proper multi-room audio.

So, what's the priority? Is it just something that means he can play with his iPad, and let's forget about doing multi-room. Or would he prefer to buy something that works now but also helps him achieve the long term goal as well?
 
Yes, there has been a bit of 'scope drift' - however, what I'm trying to propose is a solution which meets some of his requirements without spending a significant sum of money. With the speaker switch he could stream music to multiple locations - but the compromise is it's the same music stream. I'm going to nip over and have a chat with him this evening and see what he wants to do...
 
Not being funny, but I think you're in a No Win situation.

Either he's gone ahead and put in a load of ceiling speakers without costing up what it's going need to finish the job, in which case you're working with unrealistic budget expectations. Or, you've advised him he can do this for a certain amount and now you're in the hot seat.

IMO advising him to buy something that's a dead end product is a bad plan. It doesn't matter if it's a stopgap solution. It's still wasted money.

If I were in your shoes I'd bite the bullet and tell him the truth: To do proper multizone music is going to cost way more than he envisaged. Then suggest some products that will both work now and also be useful in the longer term.

So let's take stock:

Hardware - There's nothing that can be done about the speaker cable. What's in is in and that's that. The speakers aren't going to be improved any time soon either. I'll bet he didn't install speaker fire hoods either. If so then that's something that really needs addressing

Zones - You still haven't said how many zones he has. We could also do with knowing if any of the speakers are daisy-chained. That's important because it changes the electrical load that the amp sees

Sources - What does he plan to use? Will it be simply music from a NAS drive + live 'net streaming? Or does he want/need to connect a disc player or TV receiver (Sky box usually)

Infrastructure - You said his speaker cables go back to a central point. Is there a network connection in this hub point?

Budget - Is <£600 a figure that was plucked out of the air, or is there some flexibility if there's a solution that gets him a bit closer to what he wants?
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If there's only enough budget for a single player then your speaker switch idea makes sense. At least he can have music piped to whichever room he wants to use. I wouldn't drive the system though with the Denon or Marantz. Instead, I'd look for a secondhand Sonos ZP100. This is the original amp version of the Sonos players. They change hands for around £250 on AV Forums. Connect it to a router via Ethernet cable (or buy the BR100 wireless bridge). Plug in a NAS drive or PC to the same network and you're in business.

There are two reasons why the ZP100 makes better sense than the later ZP120/Connect Amp.

First, it has line output sockets. This means it can also act as a source to drive a power amp and that means it's more useful. Second, with the Marantz or Denon (or anything new) your friend will take a bath if he needs to sell it to fund new bits of the system. But a s/h ZP100 will hold its value all day long. It's a good investment. Buy two plus a speaker switch and he'll be able to dedicate one to a single zone and use the other to drive some other area in the house. This will be the start of proper multiroom.
 
Hi Lucid - yes, it is a bit of a no-win isn't it. Thankfully the situation is the former rather than the latter - as I said at the top of the thread, I'm no expert and (thankfully) didn't advise him what to do in the first place - phew!

In terms of zones, there's currently only 2 (I found out for certain last night :)) - one indoors with 4 speakers and one outdoors with 2 speakers. As a source he's keen to stream music on his iPad or iPhone - and could presumably do the same thing for radio stations. The speaker cable comes back to a central point which is nowhere near his router (I'd thought of using a powerline adaptor to get network connectivity).


So - all in all your ZP100 solution looks best overall and value for money. Thank you very much for taking the time to detail the options and deal with a numpty like me :D

Cheers!

TC
 
lucid said:
I tend to use a 12 channel (6x stereo pairs) multi-channel amp rated at 30W/ch (12x30W) but with a current swing of around 25 amps/ch. The rub is cost. These things run to around £1500 alone.
Click to expand...

Taking the post slightly off topic, what amp model is this you use ? I currently drive my multi room speakers via a stack of Arcam 8 & 9 power amps (that I mainly picked up second hand) I am installing speakers to more rooms and ideally would like to take up less cupboard space as having AV equipment, multi room amps, networking and a server under the stairs is starting to get a little toasty, I suspect adding more amps is going to tip it over the edge.

Would this model of amp you use offer similar sound quality to the Arcams as these sound pretty good running Monitor Audio inwall and ceiling speakers.
 
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