MW2 Cheat Detected WTF?

[Overslop]

But it isn't that simple. Using the same example I used before, an enhanced UI does give you an online advantage. It can simplify giving orders and grant quicker access to game functionality. But in many games this is perfectly allowable online. The argument is that anyone can download it so it's an even playing field. In the same way that someone with a dirty old P/S 2 mouse has a disadvantage against someone with a state of the art mouse with extra buttons. Technically all players have "access" to these advantages, yet it will always be unbalanced because people won't all have the same hardware. And just the same, people won't always have the same mods.

The problem is that without clear guidance on what Valve decides is a "cheat" and not a "mod", then people can lose a lot of money on their investments without intentionally cheating. This is made infinitely worse if that particular game uses a popular engine.

And as I was trying to say before, you might fancy improving your game experience by using a mod offline. Then you go online and "bam!", half your steam games are blocked.

Seems like a potential flaw to me...

 

[Teaf]

It's a bit of a gray area for things like mods that gave the player an unfair advantage - like a full bright skin on mulitplayer games. It's not technically a hack, you're not running any type of 3rd party software, or altering executable files in any way, you're just modifying the texture of the skin. Bit hard to distinguish sometimes. Like running a macro program with a game like Street Fighter to pull off complex moves, it's kinda cheaty, but kinda not. To be honest, best way, just avoid anything that gives you any inkling of doubt about what you're modifying the game with.

"Hack" and "mod" are far too broad a term.

 

[Evilsod]

But it isn't that simple. Using the same example I used before, an enhanced UI does give you an online advantage. It can simplify giving orders and grant quicker access to game functionality. But in many games this is perfectly allowable online. The argument is that anyone can download it so it's an even playing field. In the same way that someone with a dirty old P/S 2 mouse has a disadvantage against someone with a state of the art mouse with extra buttons. Technically all players have "access" to these advantages, yet it will always be unbalanced because people won't all have the same hardware. And just the same, people won't always have the same mods.

The problem is that without clear guidance on what Valve decides is a "cheat" and not a "mod", then people can lose a lot of money on their investments without intentionally cheating. This is made infinitely worse if that particular game uses a popular engine.

And as I was trying to say before, you might fancy improving your game experience by using a mod offline. Then you go online and "bam!", half your steam games are blocked.

Seems like a potential flaw to me...

You mean like the mod that VAC banned in the past that was an admin plug-in that gave admins wallhack in spectator mode so they could tell whether or not a player was wallhacking and subsequently the idiots got banned for hacking?

Such a UI change is no doubt thought of as the same as a script noob in Source games. Theres no way they can control it and in any case, the UI change sounds like a superior UI that still requires you to do everything, unlike the script noobs who use it to automate things or do inhuman stuff.

VAC will only ban if you cross the line into hacking, hacking doesn't have a grey area, either you are or you aren't, cheating does have a grey area though.

 

[Tefal]

But it isn't that simple. Using the same example I used before, an enhanced UI does give you an online advantage. It can simplify giving orders and grant quicker access to game functionality. But in many games this is perfectly allowable online. The argument is that anyone can download it so it's an even playing field. In the same way that someone with a dirty old P/S 2 mouse has a disadvantage against someone with a state of the art mouse with extra buttons. Technically all players have "access" to these advantages, yet it will always be unbalanced because people won't all have the same hardware. And just the same, people won't always have the same mods.

The problem is that without clear guidance on what Valve decides is a "cheat" and not a "mod", then people can lose a lot of money on their investments without intentionally cheating. This is made infinitely worse if that particular game uses a popular engine.

And as I was trying to say before, you might fancy improving your game experience by using a mod offline. Then you go online and "bam!", half your steam games are blocked.

Why would you use it online?

the games that use vac anyway are all fps iirc, and most use a separate exe for online and off-line play.

With FPs it's pretty obvious what construes a unfair advantage, also whatever mod you use would have to be listed in vacs database and it would be pretty apparent when you dl's you mod that there where hundreds of people complain about being banned for it in the comments.

But if in doubt never modify an online game, only it's sp component.

Seems like a potential flaw to me...

Yes the "I didn't mean to hack online i only got it for offline use and forgot" is quite a common one.

 

[apatia77]

But these bans are only for games purchases via steam right? If you bought MW2 retail you wouldn't have got banned by VAC. I am just asking as I wanted to buy BC2 from steam but found retail for only £12.50 so bought retail instead.

 

[Tefal]

It's a bit of a gray area for things like mods that gave the player an unfair advantage - like a full bright skin on mulitplayer games. It's not technically a hack,

It is by valve iirc, hence whey they made the sv_pure command.

Like running a macro program with a game like Street Fighter to pull off complex moves, it's kinda cheaty, but kinda not.

No that is cheating plain and simle, you are making the computer perform an attack or action for you with little to no imput, in a fighting game using a macro for an attack is the same as an aim bot i nan fps.

"Hack" and "mod" are far too broad a term.

Not really hack is a synonym for cheating in gaming terms mods can either be benign or hacks.

 

[Overslop]

You mean like the mod that VAC banned in the past that was an admin plug-in that gave admins wallhack in spectator mode so they could tell whether or not a player was wallhacking and subsequently the idiots got banned for hacking?

Such a UI change is no doubt thought of as the same as a script noob in Source games. Theres no way they can control it and in any case, the UI change sounds like a superior UI that still requires you to do everything, unlike the script noobs who use it to automate things or do inhuman stuff.

VAC will only ban if you cross the line into hacking, hacking doesn't have a grey area, either you are or you aren't, cheating does have a grey area though.

I'm more of an RTS gamer than an FPS one. Think of something like Command & Conquer. In one UI you wouldn't have any icons for unit groups, but in another you would. The one with the icons gives you an online advantage over your opponents. This is the sort of thing I mean.

Check out this site to see the sort of mods I, and about half the decent AoEIII players use:

http://96.51.129.201/userinterface.php

 

[Tefal]

But these bans are only for games purchases via steam right? If you bought MW2 retail you wouldn't have got banned by VAC.

MW2 uses vac as it's anti cheat get caught hacking i nmw2 you get vac banned from mw2, (but you can play on non vac servers*) also mw2 is a steamworks game and requires a steam account to play.

I am just asking as I wanted to buy BC2 from steam but found retail for only £12.50 so bought retail instead.

Bc2 uses the punkbuster anti cheat program as it's not a steam works game, hack in bc2 and you get punkbuster banned which means no online bc2. (except on non punk buster servers*)

The anti cheat system is the same regardless of how you purchase the games.


In anti cheat terms buying from steam compared to retail is like asking if there's a difference between buying from game or hmv.





*(as you can guess non vac and non punkbuster servers are usually hackfests.)

 

[Tefal]

I'm more of an RTS gamer than an FPS one. Think of something like Command & Conquer.

Then you'll likley never encounter vac.

Check out this site to see the sort of mods I, and about half the decent AoEIII players use:

http://96.51.129.201/userinterface.php

If half the players use it then odds are it's not going to get you banned.

What anticheat (if any) does AE even use anyway?

 

[scrlk]

sv_pure 1 with blacklist on Source games.

/end on mods are hacks ect

 

[Overslop]

Why would you use it online?

So I'm not frustrated by the weaknesses of the default one and be at an unfair disadvantage to my opposition.

the games that use vac anyway are all fps iirc, and most use a separate exe for online and off-line play.

That's fine about the genre then but wouldn't seperate exes make use of a lot of shared resources.

With FPs it's pretty obvious what construes a unfair advantage

I'm not arguing against that, I'm saying that it's up to Valve what is classified as a "cheat" and what isn't. On the Xbox 360 you can use a mouse and keyboard for a very unfair advantage but it won't get you banned.

also whatever mod you use would have to be listed in vacs database and it would be pretty apparent when you dl's you mod that there where hundreds of people complain about being banned for it in the comments.

And you could just as easily find out by being one of those in the initial banned group.

But if in doubt never modify an online game, only it's sp component.

Even then can you be totally sure that it isn't exempt from being classified as a cheat? It may contain code with potential misuse that the programmer never revealed/intended. And if it's a shared resource then your're buggered.

Seems like a potential flaw to me...

Yes the "I didn't mean to hack online i only got it for offline use and forgot" is quite a common one.

So you're resorting back to mods are hacks then... lol

 

[=VTA=MANFACE]

Just fired up MW2 after a month, using Win7 U 64....tis ok.

 

[colossuss]

A mw2 ban will ban you from online play completely, as there are no VAC servers

 

[Overslop]

Then you'll likley never encounter vac.

Phew! Would be very hard to swallow if one perceived hack cost me a hundred pounds worth of games or so.

If half the players use it then odds are it's not going to get you banned.

Not the case in Age of Mythology. About half the competitive players use mods. The other half use blatant cheats like no fog of war and get away with it.

What anticheat (if any) does AE even use anyway?

AoEIII has its own system whereby proper cheats are auto-detected. The account is then permabanned online. As long as its kept up-to-date and they keep it clear what constitutes as a cheat then its an excellent system. Wouldn't want it on my Steam account if it effected multiple games though. I could accept downloading what I believed was a mod for one game and be banned but being wrongfully banned for a ****load of games and my reputation for 300 games tarnished with turd...that would suck!

 

[Overslop]

Just fired up MW2 after a month, using Win7 U 64....tis ok.

And if that really was the problem then I'm sure Valve would have unbanned. Would be commercial suicide to let something like that stand.

 

[Tefal]

That's fine about the genre then but wouldn't seperate exes make use of a lot of shared resources.

Skins for mods are generally kept in a separate folder the defaults are never overridden (otherwise you'd never be able to play on sv_pure servers)

I'm not arguing against that, I'm saying that it's up to Valve what is classified as a "cheat" and what isn't.

Valve generally go for anything that modifies active memory etc.

So unless a skin or ui is designed in a very very strange way it wouldn't be detected. (which is why punk buster and complimentary anti cheat stuff like x ray takes screens hots)

And you could just as easily find out by being one of those in the initial banned group.

You'd have to be in pretty dodgy ground to dl something like that then.

Even then can you be totally sure that it isn't exempt from being classified as a cheat? It may contain code with potential misuse that the programmer never revealed/intended. And if it's a shared resource then your're buggered.

Agai nit would have to be a very very strange mod to affect anything picked up by an anti cheat program.

So you're resorting back to mods are hacks then... lol

Some mods would be considered hacks yes, ie would you consider using a 10 foot long weapon model not a hack but a harmless mod?

 

[Teaf]

It is by valve iirc, hence whey they made the sv_pure command.

What I meant was - it's not "hacking", it's more of a mod than anything. But again, this leads me onto...

Not really hack is a synonym for cheating in gaming terms mods can either be benign or hacks.

This is why I think it's too broad. I mean you just said mods can be hacks, like 5 posts ago you said mods are not hacks, except for <insert reason>. It's kinda like Evilsod said a few posts back, but I think it's the other way around. Cheating is not a gray area, you either are cheating or you aren't cheating. But I believe "hacking" and "mods" are too broad of terms due to the example you gave of "hack" being adopted as a synonym for cheating. I wonder how many people have already contradicted themselves in this topic by saying a mod is a hack, then saying the opposite. Probably even did it myself.

On the Street Fighter thing - yeah I guess you are right, it is cheating, guess I gave a poor example and didn't really think about that one properly. Wouldn't really classify it as "aimbot" level of cheatyness though

And I'll stop here on the subject, as this thread is turning into QuoteWars™.

 

[Tefal]

Phew! Would be very hard to swallow if one perceived hack cost me a hundred pounds worth of games or so.

No if vac bans you it's certainly not perceived it's full on altering active memory etc something no ui, texture or model mod will do.

Not the case in Age of Mythology. About half the competitive players use mods. The other half use blatant cheats like no fog of war and get away with it.

But they aren't banned?

Wouldn't want it on my Steam account if it effected multiple games though. I could accept downloading what I believed was a mod for one game and be banned but being wrongfully banned for a ****load of games and my reputation for 300 games tarnished with turd...that would suck!

It's not to do with steam though it's to do with the game.

Ie if Ae used the same anti cheat system on AE3 and AE3 (like vac on css and tf2) being banned i none would most likley result in you being banned in both, that's what vac does.

it won't ban you from css for hacking in mw2 as they use different engines (so slightly different versions of vac)

iirc punkbuster can go much much further than vac and ban Ip's and even hardware in extreme cases which would mean no punk buster games untill you buy a new pc.

 

[Overslop]

Of course there are exceptions. But if you can get banned for things where the lines are vague and then lose access to all the games that engine uses...then Steam goes way too far IMO. Not to mention being blacklisted for having a bad VAC rep.

I just think that bans should only be enabled for the games that cheat has been alledged in. People make mistakes, and for people like me who have invested huge amounts of money into our Steam accounts, this element of the system is a little concerning. It's a low risk of it effecting me personally. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't perhaps be changed.

 

[Tefal]

What I meant was - it's not "hacking", it's more of a mod than anything. But again, this leads me onto...

This is why I think it's too broad. I mean you just said mods can be hacks, like 5 posts ago you said mods are not hacks, except for <insert reason>. It's kinda like Evilsod said a few posts back, but I think it's the other way around. Cheating is not a gray area, you either are cheating or you aren't cheating. But I believe "hacking" and "mods" are too broad of terms due to the example you gave of "hack" being adopted as a synonym for cheating. I wonder how many people have already contradicted themselves in this topic by saying a mod is a hack, then saying the opposite. Probably even did it myself.

Yeah it is confusing >.<

generally by mods i always mean cosmetic stuff and new campaigns maps or weapons, so either it doesn't affect game play or everyone playing needs itt o play together (think Coh blitzkrieg mod)

Wouldn't really classify it as "aimbot" level of cheatyness though

How so?

in an FPs your skill comes largely from your ability to aim, an aimbot removes this and automates it, in a fighting game your ability to perform complex combos and counters is the equivalent of aim, automating this means you may as well not be there.