My new engine

Muncher

Muncher

Muncher

Soldato
Joined
17 Oct 2002
Posts
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Location
Ipswich
I'm on the verge of building a second engine which will at some point be installed in my VX, together with a Harrop supercharger and full 2bular exhaust.

The spec I am looking at is as follows:

Rebored and plateau honed block
Standard Crank
Eagle Rods
Wiseco 8.9 pistons
Ported and flowed LSJ Head including valves and springs
Allecotec Blower Cams
Balance shaft deletion
Lightened flywheel
Uprated clutch
Revised camchain kit
Entire engine balanced

I am looking for internals which are capable of at least 300bhp (which I think that spec should be), with a sensible budget, bearing in mind money could be better spent on some of the bottleknecks (supercharger and exhaust).

In theory the engine and supercharger should then be good for 350bhp but that's a bit pie in the sky at the moment as no one in the UK has actually tried it. Depending on price I'm probably getting a race engine builder who normally do Aston engines to do it for me as they already have a spare short motor and come recommended.

I realise most of you on here won't be able to help me with the spec but it's something I want to get right so any suggestions are welcome!
 
Barry Smalley said:
Can you not whack a 450bhp 20VT in it? Ian Birch is putting them in Elises.........
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No, a turbocharger does not suit the character of the car at all, power delivery needs to be linear. Plus with a turbo you have all sorts of heat problems in a mid engined car, not to mention the high cost of such a conversion!
 
Have you heard about what he is doing with them? I've not spoken to him in a while and although he is a good friend, the last time we chatted he was building an Elise for himself with a 20VT in it which was supposed to be 450bhp. He did mention that the "normal conversions would have the 225 (as standard) in them. :)
 
Barry Smalley said:
Have you heard about what he is doing with them? I've not spoken to him in a while and although he is a good friend, the last time we chatted he was building an Elise for himself with a 20VT in it which was supposed to be 450bhp. He did mention that the "normal conversions would have the 225 (as standard) in them. :)
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No direspect intended but whether it actually produces what is claimed, whether it's drivable, repeatable and most importantly reliable is another matter entirely. It's not a simple job, hence why the most popular Honda supercharged conversions cost about £15k!
 
Sounds tastey :) But I won't pretend to understand that much :o :p

Suprised no-one's pushed the supercharged engine further though? A guy has been whacking kits on to 306 GTi6 engines taking them up to 250-400bhp and that's a pretty highly stressed engine to start with.
 
Muncher said:
No, a turbocharger does not suit the character of the car at all, power delivery needs to be linear.
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I totally agree. One of the reasons I went for the 111R over the VX220 Turbo was the power delivery. I didn't like the turbo kick on the VX which could easily throw you off the road mid corner. A supercharger would suit the car much better.
 
Sounds good. I like superchargers. Make sure you keep a nice log of the build on here ;)

Got a budget you want to spend?
 
Jonny69 said:
Sounds good. I like superchargers. Make sure you keep a nice log of the build on here ;)

Got a budget you want to spend?
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Kind of, I'm really torn at the moment whether to go through with this, engine cost will be a fair amount even with selling my old one and I'm wondering whether the cost is worth it over the 255bhp I would get with no internal work. Yes the power would be nice but now doing the bhp/£ calculations the extra 40bhp or so will cost considerably more.
 
Maybe it's because I'm getting old and boring but, does it need the extra 40bhp? Besides you can always add that on later can't you?

How much would 255bhp cost?

The guy who created the kit for the GTi6 did I really good explanation of the kit, I'll try and find the thread.

http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.php?id=69404&page=1

I know it's a completely different engine etc but I'm guessing the principles will be the same so might interest you.
 
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Its what I'm trying to work out. The 255bhp will cost a reasonable amount, £5.5k to have it all done for you but I'm doing it myself so less than that.

The trouble is 255bhp is tried and tested bulletproof. Myself and Courtenay are having to make some assumptions/guesses that the M62 supercharger is not too far out of its efficiency band at that power and also that my exhaust will allow that kind of power. If it doesn't I'd need a 2bular one which is not cheap (about £2k for the full works) and supply of those is riduculous at the moment, you could wait 9 months for one. The better supercharger is the Harrop one from Australia which is more expensive however. Then I would have to get Courtenay to map it which would be a one off to even with favours would cost a lot in dyno times.

One minute I think it's a sensible idea, then the next minute I don't....
 
eidolon said:
I totally agree. One of the reasons I went for the 111R over the VX220 Turbo was the power delivery. I didn't like the turbo kick on the VX which could easily throw you off the road mid corner. A supercharger would suit the car much better.
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Turbo kick :confused: Don’t know what car you drove but mine isn’t that bad. Defiantly does not feel like a normal turbo where you get a massive load of power. Infact the car never felt as quick as i expected because of how well the turbo pulls from low down ... It pulls from very low down to the top of the rev range. It does have a flat spot but that can be sorted out with a remap. From what i read review wise before i bought it people praised the fact that it felt very " non turbocharged " And in fact your 11R i believe comes on song a little past 5000 RPM the same as say a Honda Vtec engine which i can imagine also being a little "unsettling" mid corner.

Just my 2p Mate :)

Good luck with the conversion mate be good to see it and hopefully get a ride in it once its done :cool:
 
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Sam said:
Turbo kick :confused: Don’t know what car you drove but mine isn’t that bad. Defiantly does not feel like a normal turbo where you get a massive load of power. Infact the car never felt as quick as i expected because of how well the turbo pulls from low down ... It pulls from very low down to the top of the rev range. It does have a flat spot but that can be sorted out with a remap. From what i read review wise before i bought it people praised the fact that it felt very " non turbocharged " And in fact your 11R i believe comes on song a little past 5000 RPM the same as say a Honda Vtec engine which i can imagine also being a little "unsettling" mid corner.

Just my 2p Mate :)

Good luck with the conversion mate be good to see it and hopefully get a ride in it once its done :cool:
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I drove several VXTs, some standard, some modified with stage 1 and 2 conversions and none inspired me with massive confidence if I'm totally honest.
The best of the bunch was a stage 2 VXT with aftermarket lightweight alloys (16" front/17" rear) however it still felt a bit tail heavy.

If I was to buy a VX it would have to be an NA one as I felt that having a heavy pig iron engine behind me, combined with the 17" alloys all round just did nothing for the handling (surely the whole reason you'd buy a car like this) The Elise switches cam at 6200rpm so I doubt many people would be cornering at that sort of rpm anyway, but also it's a fairly subtle increase in speed, it's not a massive torque surge like the VXT has.

With regards to the Elise, I hope I'm not coming across as a Lotus snob when I say that it's better than the Vauxhall but quite simply it is (in my opinion obviously) I had every intention of buying a VXT until I drove the 111R which totally changed my mind! It's not often a car really impresses me but the Elise did.

The power delivery and handling are far better, making the car much more drivable which persuaded me to part with more money that I'd originally intended.
 
eidolon said:
I drove several VXTs, some standard, some modified with stage 1 and 2 conversions and none inspired me with massive confidence if I'm totally honest.
The best of the bunch was a stage 2 VXT with aftermarket lightweight alloys (16" front/17" rear) however it still felt a bit tail heavy.

If I was to buy a VX it would have to be an NA one as I felt that having a heavy pig iron engine behind me, combined with the 17" alloys all round just did nothing for the handling (surely the whole reason you'd buy a car like this) The Elise switches cam at 6200rpm so I doubt many people would be cornering at that sort of rpm anyway, but also it's a fairly subtle increase in speed, it's not a massive torque surge like the VXT has.

With regards to the Elise, I hope I'm not coming across as a Lotus snob when I say that it's better than the Vauxhall but quite simply it is (in my opinion obviously) I had every intention of buying a VXT until I drove the 111R which totally changed my mind! It's not often a car really impresses me but the Elise did.

The power delivery and handling are far better, making the car much more drivable which persuaded me to part with more money that I'd originally intended.
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Fair enough :) I think its all down to personal prefrence. Fifth gear did a test of the VXT and the Elise, the elise was quicker but only by a very very small amount so the diffrence in handling isnt massive. Everyone raved about the car once it came out and looking on youtube will confirm this. The only people who usually have a pop are either elise owners or N/A owners which is understandable :)

Everyone knows the VXT needs some work to make it how it should be anyway. That is what i am trying to achieve with it.

Sam
 
The trouble is with the VXT in my view is unless you change the engine you can't do much about its biggest weakness. It's still a great car but I do think you're limited in what you can do with it in the terms eidolon is speaking of.
 
So it's a 2 litre with 208bhp right? I don't think you need a rebore and head work to get it to 250hp if you're supercharging it. The pistons are going to cost a bit and headwork is notoriously expensive. Forget the headwork and up the blower boost a bit and it'll have the same effect but cost a lot less. Sure you won't be able to get the ultimate top power numbers but you're not building the ultimate engine are you? Keep it simple, keep it fun.

My recommendation is leave the bottom end as it is. Either get headwork, cam, modify injection and exhaust manifold and run mad n/a or get supercharger, cam, modify injection and exhaust manifold and leave the head as it is. Exhaust manifolds you can bolt on later too, if there's a chance the prices will come down because of demand then just wait.
 
Before you commit to anything speak to Martin @ Reyland motorsport. He is a bit of a dab hand with the Audi 20vt which is easy to get 300 hp from, and probably a LOT cheaper than pioneering an engine conversion with some Aston race engine builders. He has put several in Elises, so can't see why he wouldn't work on yours. His prices are very reasonable and I can personally vouch for the quality of his work. Although he is best known as a Cossie tuner, he does a lot for Rovers and the Audi 20v engine.

http://reyland.co.uk/

Nad particularly here:

http://reyland.co.uk/Parts.asp?ID=23
 
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Jonny69 said:
So it's a 2 litre with 208bhp right? I don't think you need a rebore and head work to get it to 250hp if you're supercharging it. The pistons are going to cost a bit and headwork is notoriously expensive. Forget the headwork and up the blower boost a bit and it'll have the same effect but cost a lot less. Sure you won't be able to get the ultimate top power numbers but you're not building the ultimate engine are you? Keep it simple, keep it fun.

My recommendation is leave the bottom end as it is. Either get headwork, cam, modify injection and exhaust manifold and run mad n/a or get supercharger, cam, modify injection and exhaust manifold and leave the head as it is. Exhaust manifolds you can bolt on later too, if there's a chance the prices will come down because of demand then just wait.
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I can get 255bhp without any internal work, beyond there I need to be looking at rods and pistons, which is a whole kettle of fish requiring the whole engine apart and blockwork. I've got the price back and it's in the region of £3k for the engine with the whole lot built and fully balanced. I'm trying to work out whether it's more sensible to wait and see how someone else gets on with the new Harrop TVS supercharger and the new 3 inch exhaust. That's a much less risky strategy as someone else will pay for the mapping and see what happens.

bigchez - I know how good Reyland are but I'm not interested in a turbo conversion and the cost would be even higher than what I'm looking at now.
 
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