Need help - affordable Ryzen NAS-Plex server

[plonka2000]

So I'm almost at the point that I'm buying hardware to refresh my ancient Home Server.
I'm seeing a lot of good things about Ryzen 3 at the moment, but I'm pretty confused as to what to go for.

My use case/requirements:
- I'm looking at UnRaid as base OS
- Virtualisation within Unraid (Couple VMs and Docker, homelab stuff)
- NAS SMB/NFS storage
- Plex (Plex mainly 1080p transcoding, but looking to go to 4K in future)
- Lots of fast SATA storage ports (ideally 8 onboard)

I've got quite a bit of the basic hardware I can use from my existing server:
- PSU (Need to check, but I think its 700W)
- Case (large enough for 8 drives)
- Disks (Have enough disks)

Two of the main questions I have around this setup is CPU and Motherboard.
On the CPU side, should I go for an APU like 3400G and not need a graphics card or go for something more like a 3600 or 3800?
On the motherboard side, should I go for something in the X570 range or is something in the B450 range more than good enough? I've always in the past overspent on motherboards.

I'm also trying to manage the cost, if possible, so I think I need:
- CPU
- Motherboard
- Memory

I'm looking to maybe keep costs within 400 for these items.

I've been up and down the forums for a while, hopefully this will be enough to help a recommendation.

 

[whiskycycle]

I've just built an Unraid box with a R5-2600, Gigabyte B450M-DS3H, 2x8GB. Added a passive GT710 video card so it would boot.

Added a couple of SATA cards for some more ports to allow me to connect 8x4TB HD, 1x800GB SSD, although that's going to be replaced by a LSI SAS card soon. Used the m2 slot for an SSD that stays unassigned in Unraid for some VM stuff. Performance of the drives, even with the SATA cards, is more than enough and I've pretty much the same use you're wanting out of the system.

Passmark performance on the R5-2600 beats out the 3400G and for things like VM performance too, and the difference in cost pays for the GT710.

 

[PiKe]

Don't bother trying to transcode 4k, Plex can't handle tone mapping and it results in a washed out image.

 

[plonka2000]

I've just built an Unraid box with a R5-2600, Gigabyte B450M-DS3H, 2x8GB. Added a passive GT710 video card so it would boot.

Added a couple of SATA cards for some more ports to allow me to connect 8x4TB HD, 1x800GB SSD, although that's going to be replaced by a LSI SAS card soon. Used the m2 slot for an SSD that stays unassigned in Unraid for some VM stuff. Performance of the drives, even with the SATA cards, is more than enough and I've pretty much the same use you're wanting out of the system.

Passmark performance on the R5-2600 beats out the 3400G and for things like VM performance too, and the difference in cost pays for the GT710.

That sounds like a nice board, saw a few reviews about it saying its simple and good. I like that.
With only 2 PCIe slots, is it ok, especially because you'll run out of slots after the GPU and LSi card?
I think I'd use the m2 slot for caching.

Don't bother trying to transcode 4k, Plex can't handle tone mapping and it results in a washed out image.

Hopefully I wont be transcoding at 4K, but I'd like the headroom for it or the other VMs if possible.
How has your experience been with 4K transcoding? I have a couple test files I encoded, but my current server falls over then trying to transcoding them.

 

[Armageus]

Why transcode at all? Better to have a library that can be direct streamed where possible.
(And if you are looking at 4K content, better to just have separate 4K and 1080P libraries e.g. Emby lets the client select from multiple versions, assume Plex is similar https://emby.media/community/index.php?/topic/68721-movies-with-multiple-resolutions/)

If you do need to transcode however, GPU transcoding is another option worth considering, with even a Geforce 1050Ti able to handle up to 14 1080P->720P transcodes (assuming you bypass NVIDIAs concurrent driver limit).
Intel's quicksync is also worth considering, but you would obviously need an intel chip to benefit.


references:
https://www.elpamsoft.com/?p=Plex-Hardware-Transcoding

 

[whiskycycle]

That sounds like a nice board, saw a few reviews about it saying its simple and good. I like that.
With only 2 PCIe slots, is it ok, especially because you'll run out of slots after the GPU and LSi card?
I think I'd use the m2 slot for caching.

It's a decent, solid board and a reasonable price.

I've currently got the video card in the bottom slot, as although it's a passive cooler, it wasn't the single slot passive cooler I'd hoped for and that photos on the rainforest site indicated it was! That's enough to get Unraid started, as the board won't fire up otherwise with the CPU not having onboard GPU. I'm not running VMs with video card pass-through requirements, so no need for a beast of a card.

Two 4 port SATA cards in the main 16x and the 1x slots, enough bandwidth even on 1x to handle playing media or pulling files off, and parity check on 6x4TB data (2x4TB dual parity) takes about 11.5 hours. The 800GB SSD is on the first onboard SATA port as cache, as the 240GB m2 card bottlenecked and filled with the amount of data I was copying across from Synology box... the Unraid mover process couldn't shift enough data from the cache to the 4TB drives quick enough to empty it before writing directly (and slowly) to the mechanical 4TB.

I'd throw in as big an m2 cache drive in as I could, for the reason above, as well as VM/Docker.

 

[plonka2000]

Why transcode at all? Better to have a library that can be direct streamed where possible.
(And if you are looking at 4K content, better to just have separate 4K and 1080P libraries e.g. Emby lets the client select from multiple versions, assume Plex is similar https://emby.media/community/index.php?/topic/68721-movies-with-multiple-resolutions/)

If you do need to transcode however, GPU transcoding is another option worth considering, with even a Geforce 1050Ti able to handle up to 14 1080P->720P transcodes (assuming you bypass NVIDIAs concurrent driver limit).
Intel's quicksync is also worth considering, but you would obviously need an intel chip to benefit.

I transcode because I have content that I don't want to reencode, and transcoding works fine for that.
I also do a lot of remote watching when I'm travelling, so transcoding content for various devices works nicely.

It's a decent, solid board and a reasonable price.

I've currently got the video card in the bottom slot, as although it's a passive cooler, it wasn't the single slot passive cooler I'd hoped for and that photos on the rainforest site indicated it was! That's enough to get Unraid started, as the board won't fire up otherwise with the CPU not having onboard GPU. I'm not running VMs with video card pass-through requirements, so no need for a beast of a card.

Two 4 port SATA cards in the main 16x and the 1x slots, enough bandwidth even on 1x to handle playing media or pulling files off, and parity check on 6x4TB data (2x4TB dual parity) takes about 11.5 hours. The 800GB SSD is on the first onboard SATA port as cache, as the 240GB m2 card bottlenecked and filled with the amount of data I was copying across from Synology box... the Unraid mover process couldn't shift enough data from the cache to the 4TB drives quick enough to empty it before writing directly (and slowly) to the mechanical 4TB.

I'd throw in as big an m2 cache drive in as I could, for the reason above, as well as VM/Docker.

Seems like a good idea to get a bigger m2, not sure what I'll do there yet.

I'm wondering if there are decent boards under/around 100 that have 8 SATA ports and more than 2 PCIe slots?
I'll check Gigabytes other offerings and see.

 

[Avalon]

1: You do not transcode 4K. As mentioned tone mapping is broken, h265 decode is broken under anything other than windows (Ubuntu is kind of working, but it’s not perfect). Run a dedicated 4K library, prevent transcoding on it by using tautulli scripting.

2. If you have a suitable connection, consider remote storage, it’ll be cheaper than buying/powering it/dealing with it.

If you do want to run a local server, I did exactly what you’re doing now when Ryzen launched, 1700 (non x), 32GB, 512GB NVMe, multi port intel nic, load of local storage (multiple 8TB drives). It quickly became obvious that local storage wasn’t viable to grow/expand, I could pay £8/m or so and never have to deal with it for media. If I were doing it now, I may consider a modern 8th gem intel CPU with iGPU if my bias was Plex, otherwise the 1700/2700 is the best value for money Ryzen option, Xeon v3’s and x99 are also appealing if you prefer intel, but effectively dead end tech. Patching Nvidia GPU drivers will free up a lot of CPU power for other things though, 960 (P106) or 1050 are decent buys now.

Also an H310 flashed to IT mode solves the SATA issues, but really give cloud storage some serious thought before you start with physical storage for media.

 

[whiskycycle]

@Avalon I definitely need to revisit PGB again after you mentioned it previously... physical was my requirement at the minute unfortunately though! Could probably drop to just an RPi if it weren't for the Unraid box.

 

[PiKe]

Isn't there always the risk your cloud storage can be wiped due to copyrighted materials being hosted there?

 

[Avalon]

Isn't there always the risk your cloud storage can be wiped due to copyrighted materials being hosted there?

The only known examples of this are where the user did something monumentally stupid, like sharing links publicly and those links being reported.

 

[plonka2000]

I appreciate there is a lot of opinion on the validity of hosting your own home server here, but I really do need to rebuild my home server.
I stated my use case because I use it for more than Plex (IE: Homelab stuff).

I really am trying to find out if there are any recommendations for a CPU/Mobo/Memory combination or if I'm missing anything, or missing the mark on what I need.
With the recent release of Zen 2 Ryzen, the X570 boards seem to be an obvious choice for me, but I dont know if they are overkill for what I'm doing.
I do usually overspend when it comes to motherboards, X570 is generally more expensive, and is apparently higher quality from the ground up.

PCIe4 sounds attractive, but I understand that maybe its not that useful right now.
Upgradeability is probably a better thing I might want, especially as I'm buying new.

Any advice?

 

[Avalon]

Who said anything about not running a local server? I suggested mounting cloud based storage as it’s unlimited and cheaper vs constantly growing local storage and pointed out that an HBA flashed to IT mode solves your fascination with onboard SATA.

Perhaps if you gave us some idea on anticipated usage eg IO/CPU/connectivity requirements you’d get a more useful response? Nothing you’ve said so tells us anything meaningful and the difference between you feeding 50 remote users who all need to transcode and hammering your symmetrical gigabit connection with SAB doing RAR/PAR work and a bunch of encoding sessions along with some game servers running in the background and pfsense/untangle running complex rule sets/analytics/DPI etc.

Nothing you’ve stated so far suggests you’ll gain any meaningful advantage by spending on a X570 board over any of the other options.

Plex wise you could at least try and give us some indication as to the number of concurrent transcodes you’ll be doing. As explained already, you don’t want to transcode 4K.

1. HDR>SDR tone mapping is broken.
2. HEVC hardware decode support is effectively broken in everything but Windows.
3. The software requirements to transcode HEVC 4K are obscene.

Here are Plex’ suggested requirements:

• 4K HDR (50Mbps, 10-bit HEVC) file: 17000 PassMark score (being transcoded to 10Mbps 1080p)

• 4K SDR (40Mbps, 8-bit HEVC) file: 12000 PassMarkscore (being transcoded to 10Mbps 1080p)

• 1080p (10Mbps, H.264) file: 2000 PassMark score

• 720p (4Mbps, H.264) file: 1500 PassMark score

So in simple terms, my Ryzen 1700 has a CPU mark of 13774, that means it can do 7ish 1080 transcoded, but 1 x 4K SDR transcode and very little else, a 2700x can literally do 1 x 4K HDR transcode and it’ll still look like garbage. Even if it didn’t look like garbage, you’d grind the rest of your VM/dockers into the ground while doing so. You could go with something like the 3800x with just under 25k of CPU mark, but it would still look like garbage. The other option is GPU transcoding, Intel iGPU’s are arguably the most suitable/efficient for smaller servers, Nvidia scale better, but consumer kit is officially limited to two concurrent streams and HW decode is still officially only a Windows feature (it can be implemented on Ubuntu/Debian and some others unofficially). You can use modified drivers to bypass the stream limit of consumer grade cards, or use something like a Quadro (P2000 or later which supports HW HEVC decode and 4K HDR to SDR). If you really do want to transcode 4K and watch horribly washed out crap, then this is the way to do it without killing everything else in the process, but without knowing your planned usage it’s pointless suggesting which card suits your needs before you ask.

 

[plonka2000]

Who said anything about not running a local server? I suggested mounting cloud based storage as it’s unlimited and cheaper vs constantly growing local storage and pointed out that an HBA flashed to IT mode solves your fascination with onboard SATA.

Perhaps if you gave us some idea on anticipated usage eg IO/CPU/connectivity requirements you’d get a more useful response? Nothing you’ve said so tells us anything meaningful and the difference between you feeding 50 remote users who all need to transcode and hammering your symmetrical gigabit connection with SAB doing RAR/PAR work and a bunch of encoding sessions along with some game servers running in the background and pfsense/untangle running complex rule sets/analytics/DPI etc.

Nothing you’ve stated so far suggests you’ll gain any meaningful advantage by spending on a X570 board over any of the other options.

That escalated quickly. I'm just looking for advice, because I'm confused.

I use my home server for "homelab" stuff, which is mostly cluster tests for work, light development stuff, and sometimes offline transcoding.
I play around with Docker and VMs quite a bit on my ancient current server, but it struggles with everything I throw at it.

So... that's why I like to have some headroom, within reasonable cost.

The X570 thought process is because I'd like to have an upgrade path, but I'm concerned about heat and cost.

Plex wise you could at least try and give us some indication as to the number of concurrent transcodes you’ll be doing. As explained already, you don’t want to transcode 4K.

1. HDR>SDR tone mapping is broken.
2. HEVC hardware decode support is effectively broken in everything but Windows.
3. The software requirements to transcode HEVC 4K are obscene.

Here are Plex’ suggested requirements:

• 4K HDR (50Mbps, 10-bit HEVC) file: 17000 PassMark score (being transcoded to 10Mbps 1080p)

• 4K SDR (40Mbps, 8-bit HEVC) file: 12000 PassMarkscore (being transcoded to 10Mbps 1080p)

• 1080p (10Mbps, H.264) file: 2000 PassMark score

• 720p (4Mbps, H.264) file: 1500 PassMark score

Yeah, I read through the Plex recommendations, and seen them mentioned elsewhere in this forum as a decent yardstick for Plexy stuff.

I use my Plex and NAS server quite a bit, because I like streaming from home when I'm travelling, so it sounds like I better not skimp on the CPU.
Friends and a few family stream from my Plex also, so it can be unpredictable how many streams get used. Probably anywhere from just me to 4 at the same time? I don't let anyone stream 4K, lol.

Is the IPC gains of Ryzen 3 worth it, or should I consider to get a discounted 2700/2700x instead?

So in simple terms, my Ryzen 1700 has a CPU mark of 13774, that means it can do 7ish 1080 transcoded, but 1 x 4K SDR transcode and very little else, a 2700x can literally do 1 x 4K HDR transcode and it’ll still look like garbage. Even if it didn’t look like garbage, you’d grind the rest of your VM/dockers into the ground while doing so. You could go with something like the 3800x with just under 25k of CPU mark, but it would still look like garbage. The other option is GPU transcoding, Intel iGPU’s are arguably the most suitable/efficient for smaller servers, Nvidia scale better, but consumer kit is officially limited to two concurrent streams and HW decode is still officially only a Windows feature (it can be implemented on Ubuntu/Debian and some others unofficially). You can use modified drivers to bypass the stream limit of consumer grade cards, or use something like a Quadro (P2000 or later which supports HW HEVC decode and 4K HDR to SDR). If you really do want to transcode 4K and watch horribly washed out crap, then this is the way to do it without killing everything else in the process, but without knowing your planned usage it’s pointless suggesting which card suits your needs before you ask.

So, what you're saying is... 4K transcoding looks like garbage, right?

I'm not planning to transcode 4K, but I'll probably mess around with it at some point.

I'm more interested in upgradability and NAS storage, hence my fascination with onboard SATA.
For storage though, I could pick up a SAS card from ebay and go that route of course. If that, then I'd probably want more PCIe.

 

[Armageus]

so it sounds like I better not skimp on the CPU.

No lol...

What are the CPU requirements for everything else you do (other than Transcoding)?

Pointless to buy a huge multicore CPU if you don't need it for anything else.

As already stated Transcoding is better handled via an Intel CPU with Quicksync (e.g. even an i3-8100 or similar is plenty) , or an NVidia graphics card.

https://forums.plex.tv/t/plex-4k-transcoding-and-you-aka-the-rules-of-4k-a-faq/378203

Well worth a read

 

[Avalon]

Lets try and narrow this down slightly, how fast is your uplink and what proportion of it do you plan on devoting to remote Plex users/how many concurrent users do you plan on having? This will dictate what sort of CPU transcoding requirement Plex will have. The ability to do 50 concurrent transcodes in hardware sounds great, but if you only have 20Mbit uplink and set your remote quality to 1080/8 then that's two streams max + whatever is being streamed locally. 4K SDR to 1080 doesn't look horrible, but the only efficient way to do so is in hardware (GPU) and a cheap m2000 or 960 (with a driver mod) won’t do HDR, but will do 4K for less than the cost to jump from a 2nd gen 2700 to a current gen 3700, a 1050 will do everything once decode support and tone mapping are both fixed (it’s been a long wait so far).

Most (if not all) 1st gen AM4 boards can run current gen Ryzen, this combined with the low used price between a 1st gen and 2nd gen chips means you may find better value with a used board and 2700/2700x now and have the option to upgrade as/when required cheaply. Combine that with an H310 and you have a perfect set-up for mechanical drives on unraid, cache I use SSD's or NVMe, but that's just me, it all depends on your IO loading and the number of VM's etc. and you may prefer to direct pass a drive depending on what you're playing with.

 

[plonka2000]

Morning, hope you guys had a good weekend.

@Armageus
The rest of what I have varies, I run a bunch of different virtualised clusters and workloads sometimes when I'm replicating work stuff.
Also, I develop and run apps in docker as tests, so it varies, but I'd say this isn't production stuff like with users putting load on. A couple of spare cores and 2-4GB memory would probably be more than enough headroom.

@Avalon
My connection at home is 500 down / 60 up, and I don't mind using most of it (Say 3/4) for streaming at the times.
I'd say about 4 concurrent users is my current usage, and that probably won't change.

I think maybe one of the reasons I'm also considering the X570 boards, is because I'll likely not change or update this server for a decade (As with my last server), and I'd like the maximum long-term upgradeability. By the time I look for a CPU upgrade, it may be 2030. lol
I'm definitely looking to try and max out my IO for disks where I can, to facilitate faster local networking in future.
AM4 is supposed to be supported into 2020, but they may release more chips after that too.

So in the end, I think I just want to future-proof myself by having a as-modern motherboard chipset as possible, and then got with something like a used 2700x. I will check ebay for such a chip.
I know it's somewhat flawed logic, but its the approach I've always taken in the past. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Avalon]

Future proof yourself how exactly? Every single AM4 board produced supports the same CPU upgrade path at present, in terms of storage, Gen 3 sequential reads are already at a point where the law of diminishing returns kicked in a long, long time ago, it’s now a meaningless number to most - unless you have an unusual usage pattern. As far as ongoing CPU upgrades, we might see a 16c AM4 variant and likely a refresh, but no guarantees, either way an older 8c is a hell of a lot of chip for the money.

It’s obviously your choice, but I can’t see any real world benefit for x570 at this stage and you specifically said you wanted to keep costs down, nothing you’ve said suggests spending more in this area will give you any meaningful real world benefit now or in the future, but feel free to ignore me, at worst you end up with a nice board and a slightly larger hole in your bank balance.

 

[plonka2000]

Hey, back from vacation and getting real close to a purchase decision.

Hey, I get that the CPU path right now is the same across AM4 boards, but that's what I mean by future-proof.
I think you know what I mean, it's possible/likely that at some point down the line it would be worth it, especially if I'm not looking to upgrade in the next years.
You're 100% right that there's no benefit to it at this exact moment, but I doubt I'll be changing it for another decade (Maybe CPU).

I was originally considering getting a 2400G or 3600G but, I've seen for a marginal amount I can grab a 3600.
It would have course mean that I have to get a Add-in GFX, but the extra 2 cores seem good for the price at 65W.
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/amd-...hz-socket-am4-processor-retail-cp-3b9-am.html
I'm still checking ebay for a 2700X, there seem to be a lot of them around.

I've been looking at the Gigabyte Aorus ELITE for a board, but I'm not sure about the ECC support.
On Gigabytes site, it says nothing about it, but other sites (Including OCUK does)
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/giga...4-x570-chipset-atx-motherboard-mb-57w-gi.html

Also the ASUS TUF gaming non-WiFi claims to support ECC, depending on CPU, and also proudly has 8 SATA (Yes, I know, but then I wont need an add-in board). The emphasis on stability is great also.
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/asus...4-x570-chipset-atx-motherboard-mb-6dr-as.html

Any advice on these boards and ECC?
Also, is there a recommended ECC/Non-ECC memory kit for 16GB or 32GB?

Thanks, I appreciate you guys taking the time.

 

[Avalon]

This doesn’t feel like you want advice, just validation of your choices, even when they contradict what you originally said you wanted.

Board wise if you aren’t going to upgrade for 10 years, what’s the point in overspending on a board that you think will let you upgrade in 2030? Spending £xxx extra on a motherboard now on the basis that it may save you £30 on an HBA that can move from build to build seems flawed, what extra exactly do you think you are getting for your money? AM4 will see a refresh of the existing lineup at most, the upgrade path won’t change, and in 10 years you wouldn’t want to upgrade it, it’ll be a new board running half the power with way more cores - just look at what was being run 10 years ago, C2D and C2Q’s... you wouldn’t want to upgrade that chip today, it would be horribly inefficient and a waste of time/money vs something more modern.

Where did ECC come from and what’s the usage requirement? It wasn’t part of your original spec/requirements. AM4 ECC support is down to the OEM’s, it’s fair to say it should work, but it’s not a given.

As to reliability, stop buying into marketing hype, ASUS have generally poor BIOS support and really, really crappy RMA support. Gigabyte have UK RMA’s, I’m not saying they are in a different league, but if I had to pay for ASUS products, I wouldn’t.