Net zero could push energy bills up by £120 a year

[jpaul]

The prime minister on Thursday defended his decision to push back a ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars, and relax the phaseout of new gas boilers, following a backlash from some businesses and members of his own party.He said critics of his move should explain “why ordinary families up and down the country should have to fork out 5, 10, 15 thousand pounds to make the transition earlier than is necessary”.

well - if you gave ordinary families a similar tax break to the company car owner BIK that would level up the BEV transition cost.
e: and the bik all supports manufacturers applying a premium to RRP - something like 75% of ev's being licensed are fleet.

 

[Blackjack Davy]

I find the country’s – and in particular this government’s – lack of ambition desperately sad. We seem to accepted that we’re no longer world leaders.

Its lack of forethought lack of planning lack of investment and lack of anything other than seeing no further than the next election and doing absolutely anything that might shore up their chances including screwing over the environment and future generations utterly and completely

 

[jpaul]

he seemed to say we world leaders in - carbon reduction , due to (£££ offshore) windfarms , unfortunately not the the technology itself though ? thought that was from the likes of Siemens in the EU;

also is the domestic carbon reduction contributed to by reduced manufacturing capability and import of carbon heavy goods from elsewhere (which is just as bad)

 

[Lean]

I threw those stats up as a guage of where you should have been 15 years ago according to people who want to believe.
"I'm doing my bit" means nothing. Bankrupting our little country chasing net zero is f* **ing ridiculous when we are insignificant in the grand scheme. The technology isn't there. The infrastructure isn't there. To purposely weaken our country chasing something that is unachievable is moronic.
Beer apologies.

 

[jigger]

I threw those stats up as a guage of where you should have been 15 years ago according to people who want to believe.
"I'm doing my bit" means nothing. Bankrupting our little country chasing net zero is f* **ing ridiculous when we are insignificant in the grand scheme. The technology isn't there. The infrastructure isn't there. To purposely weaken our country chasing something that is unachievable is moronic.
Beer apologies.

We must start to undo the damage we have done. We need an economy that can move us forward and unfortunately we have to start taking into consideration the true cost of our energy production. The big selling point of nuclear power at it inception was power generation at increasingly lower costs and zero emissions. We have to renew ideals like that.

 

[adam cool dude]

We must start to undo the damage we have done. We need an economy that can move us forward and unfortunately we have to start taking into consideration the true cost of our energy production. The big selling point of nuclear power at it inception was power generation at increasingly lower costs and zero emissions. We have to renew ideals like that.

We cannot undo the "damage" without a whole rethink of our entire society. I am no commie but capitalism cannot work with climate change if you want a future but we all want the latest toys so where is the line drawn? It is a lost cause really and cataclysm is inevitable before change can happen. Consumerism is far worse than ICE yet it is such a taboo as to do anything about it would see people lose their jobs and massive companies fold.

Changing over to EV's is totally insignificant in the grand scheme whilst bankrupting the country and making us all poorer in the process. We are not the big country anymore that can be at the forefront. We just cannot afford it.

 

[Twinz]

now dont get me wrong even they may not soak enough up for those with fantastic arrays and who are exporting 60kwh a day in summer, but in reality how many people will have those, plus people in flats who cant have solar but will eventually have an EV.

even on the most perfect summer day i only export 25kwh max (usually much less)...... but if we all had EVs that would soon be soaked up.

I just realized I forgot to address this part specifically.

It's not the amount exported in a day. It's the fact the the vast majority of excess solar occurs in a a matter of **hours** in a given day. So if you export 25kwh on a given summer "day", you are probably exporting 18-20 of those kwhs in just a few short hours out of that 24-hour period.

The compressed-time of production is the challenge.

 

[Twinz]

We cannot undo the "damage" without a whole rethink of our entire society. I am no commie but capitalism cannot work with climate change if you want a future but we all want the latest toys so where is the line drawn?

Supply and demand brought my family to solar, (net metering hastened the move, though) and the economics of EV's are improving as well.

 

[CapitalOne]

We cannot undo the "damage" without a whole rethink of our entire society. I am no commie but capitalism cannot work with climate change if you want a future but we all want the latest toys so where is the line drawn? It is a lost cause really and cataclysm is inevitable before change can happen. Consumerism is far worse than ICE yet it is such a taboo as to do anything about it would see people lose their jobs and massive companies fold.

Changing over to EV's is totally insignificant in the grand scheme whilst bankrupting the country and making us all poorer in the process. We are not the big country anymore that can be at the forefront. We just cannot afford it.

Just a quick point. EV migration won’t bankrupt the country, certainly some policies will but this is not one of them.

Forget cars, it’s a low sterling, stagflation and trade barriers that will do that.

Cars schmars.

 

[jigger]

We cannot undo the "damage" without a whole rethink of our entire society. I am no commie but capitalism cannot work with climate change if you want a future but we all want the latest toys so where is the line drawn? It is a lost cause really and cataclysm is inevitable before change can happen. Consumerism is far worse than ICE yet it is such a taboo as to do anything about it would see people lose their jobs and massive companies fold.

Changing over to EV's is totally insignificant in the grand scheme whilst bankrupting the country and making us all poorer in the process. We are not the big country anymore that can be at the forefront. We just cannot afford it.

We can make a change and these next few generations are critical to helping with short and medium term solutions.

The question of financing need to be looked greatly. Most just we can’t afford to become greener but no one seems to ask the question of why. In reality we can’t afford not to do anything as even the short term cost of dealing with the issues we will see in our lifetimes will pale by comparison.

 

[Hagar]

All the 3090's and 4090's in this and similar threads probably aren't helping.

At least nobody is crunching bitcoin 24/7 nowadays.

 

[jigger]

All the 3090's and 4090's in this and similar threads probably aren't helping.

At least nobody is crunching bitcoin 24/7 nowadays.

Electrical power use is fine. Our goal should be use as much electricity as possible as that should improve our standard of living. That power can’t come from coal or oil though. We need more nuclear and renewables.

 

[Hagar]

Electrical power use is fine. Our goal should be use as much electricity as possible as that should improve our standard of living. That power can’t come from coal or oil though. We need more nuclear and renewables.

No not really, electrical power causes heat. Fine if it dissipates into outer space but not so fine if it hangs around due to greenhouse gasses.

 

[bigmike20vt]

I just realized I forgot to address this part specifically.

It's not the amount exported in a day. It's the fact the the vast majority of excess solar occurs in a a matter of **hours** in a given day. So if you export 25kwh on a given summer "day", you are probably exporting 18-20 of those kwhs in just a few short hours out of that 24-hour period.

The compressed-time of production is the challenge.

that isn't the case with my array....... In peak time of the year generation starts at about 6am. by 9am my home battery is full and I am exporting. during the absolute peak which is between about 12pm and 3pm I may hit 4kwh output (significantly lower than what my car can take on a 7kwh charge point). this drops over the course of the afternoon until about 7:30pm where I am back to covering my house use and then by 8:30pm it's done in any practical sense.
so at its peak time of the year I am generating for up to 14.5hrs

after that I flip over to battery which in peak summer can see me through the night OR Incan top up from the grid on off peak power.right now my battery is about to start charging off the grid (it's 11:45pm). it's 65% full so won't need much from the grid.

edit and just to prove I am not talking out of my foot. a random day not cherry picked from June.

note my max output was lower as we were in a drought and there was a thick coat of dust on the panels.
top bar is generation bottom is my use

the blue is export the green battery charging (which I did off the grid because I could sell my energy during peak demand for more than it cost to buy to charge the battery off peak).

this is a smallish 5.1kwh system over an east west facing roof

Shared album from Mike

Tap to view!

photos.app.goo.gl

 

[Twinz]

I estimate that my system makes more than my home uses somewhere between 3 to 5 hours a day during the summer. (Summer = rainy season here in Florida)

Looking at a random day last week without a big storm, the system produced electricity starting around 7:30am with 0.3 kwh, peaked in the 8kwh range around 1pm, and back under 1kwh by 7pm.

I don't have a system that reports import export and instead just look at the meter that cycles through totals and has an LCD visual indicator for direction of flow and the speed indicates how much. A few weeks ago, I was mowing my lawn around 11am and noticed the meter was almost at a standstill. (I was breaking even with my central AC running).

I have seen it go backwards and my bills indicate a surplus, but I doubt I am generating *surplus* energy for the majority of daylight hours.

(My Enphase system just reports what it produces and when, but doesn't know what I'm using)

 

[D.P.]

No not really, electrical power causes heat. Fine if it dissipates into outer space but not so fine if it hangs around due to greenhouse gasses.

This is a very weird take, and complete nonsense. Electricity doesn't cause heat, e.g. an electric motor creates mechanical power. Inefficiencies can cause heat, but in general electrical systems are far more efficient, that is one of the main values of a BEV car.

But all of that is nonsense. Even if 100% of electrical power on the planet was used to create heat, the heat output is meaningless. Global heating is caused by trapping solar energy .

To put it in perspective, an area well under 1% of the Sahara desert would be required to produce enough solar energy for the entire planets needs for decades to come, even based in current PVC efficiencies. That is how.much solar energy is being blasted on the planet constantly. Solar isolation is around 1.3kw per m2 annual global average. That would be equivalent to installing one of those space heaters or having a kettle plugged in permanently on every square meter of the planet.


This is why increasing Greenhouse gasses has such a massive impact because just trapping a small fraction of that massive solar energy input generates massive thermal heating

 

[StriderX]

You'd think someone would have figured out how to make solar panels completely modular and easily fabricated on-site by now so it can be automated.

 

[Hagar]

This is why increasing Greenhouse gasses has such a massive impact because just trapping a small fraction of that massive solar energy input generates massive thermal heating

You are right and so am I to an extent. A fraction of the electrical energy is produced using renewable sources across the planet. Demand for energy and manufactured stuff cranks up the energy required and the power stations kick in. Turn on the AC to keep cool and the power required needs to come from somewhere. Even in the temperate UK people sleep with AC, ridiculous. Dishwashers and tumble dryers why?

As an aside, why do processors have big **** off heat sinks if they do not produce epic heat for their size. If we halved our energy requirements we would reduce our greenhouse gas emissions as well as standard of living but economies begin at home, no?

 

[bigmike20vt]

. Even in the temperate UK people sleep with AC, ridiculous. Dishwashers and tumble dryers why?

a couple of thoughts ..

surely so long as those AC units, dishwashers and driers are produced from renewables then does it matter?
but also . . I thought dishwashers effiencies had increased so much over the years that it was now considered more efficient to use a dishwasher when loaded correctly than it was to wash stuff by hand? (or have unfallen into a marketing trap there?)

and tumble driers....... in winter with rubbish weather how else are you meant to dry your clothes esp if you have a family .. I mean clothes maidens and what not but nowadays with minimised air movement due to insulation etc black mould is already a problem without making more humid due to clothes.
so long as that energy is from renewables such as solar, then with CO2 under control then am not sure the tiny amount of heat we produce would be even a tiny notch on the scale, which is why we have to get away from fossil fuels, the burning of which is releasing CO2 which has been locked up in the ground for millions of years .

yes it would not be the 1st time CO2 levels had been as high as what ever we can make them by releasing all that CO2...... but life as it is today is generally not built for it

 

[Hagar]

Agreed but less than a quarter of energy worldwide is produced by renewables. We maybe can solve the emissions over our corner of the sky but that is not a solution. The only solution really is to bring down energy use whether that is electricity or fossil fuels. Burning wood is not too clever either.