New build advice around £1,000 (SFF Mini-ITX 5700G iGPU, not gaming)

danito

danito

danito

Associate
Joined
13 Nov 2008
Posts
6
Hi guys,

been a while since I last build a PC, decided on some parts but still thinking about the rest of it, so I need some help please

This build will be used mainly as developer workstation, so I care about CPU, memory and I/O speed, and small box size, I don't care about gaming performance, hence going with integrated graphics CPU (APU). I am not sure which AM4 motherboard to choose, and then memory and M2 drive.

I decided to go with:
  • CPU: Ryzen 7 5700g (integrated graphics)
  • Case: Chopin Pro Mini-ITX Tower, due to the very small size, and it includes a 200 W PSU
  • Fan: Noctua NH-L9a-AM4 Probably will replace the stock fan with a better qualilty one, for the small size
  • Thermal paste: Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut, I saw a guy using this, looks like good quality.
  • Drive: probably one M2 PCIe 4 drive although this CPU supports only PCIe 3, at least I can use the drive as v4 if I upgrade the CPU. (Another (dropped) idea was to use 2 x M2 drives (PCIe 3.0) in RAID 0 for I/O gains, but it's not easy to find a motherboard that supports this and the gains are questionable).
Looking to spend around £1,000. I will keep doing my research and update here, any input on this build is very much appreciated and comments are welcome,

Cheers

Edit: updating parts list as we go...
Edit2: this ended up costing 2,500, so apologies for the misleading title, but the original plan was around 1,000...
 
Last edited:
What kind of development will it be used for? Code compiling mainly?

Depending on exactly what it's used for, might actually be an area where a gen 4 nvme drive would have measurable benefits other than copying files from one drive to another! For most purposes gen 3 is easy plenty fast enough, but there are some specific tasks which benefit from gen 4 speeds. (At least, apparently there are - not something I have personal experience of).

Re ram, 3600Mhz normally seem as the sweet spot for ryzen, with C16 timings being the best readily available stuff. Some C16 sets are faster than others depending on sub timings though - eg this:
https://store.overclockers.co.uk/te...00c16-3600mhz-dual-channel-kit-my-002-8p.html
Should perform very slightly better than this :
https://store.overclockers.co.uk/cr...00c16-3600mhz-dual-channel-kit-my-20r-cr.html
That first set has better potential for overclocking further if that's something you'd be doing, as it uses Samsung b-die chips, which are basically the best on the market. Or you could save some money and go for a 3200mhz C16 set instead, which might actually be a good option if it freed up some more of your budget to upgrade a different bit of the build, for example.

NB you're not necessarily guaranteed to be able to reach the xmp speeds / timings with a certain ram / motherboard / AMD cpu combo even if the specific ram chips are on the motherboard 'QVL list' as some cpu memory controllers just aren't up to it. Most should be fine at 3600 though.

Worth making sure you will need 32gb of ram, as if 16gb is enough then you could save a fair bit of money to speed on a different component upgrade (or equally that you won't actually need 64gb...).

If the smallest possible form factor is really important to you then that case looks like it will be fine, but you will be limiting any scope for future upgradeability and compatibility with coolers etc. Eg it looks like there isn't any room for a gpu, so you'd always have to have an integrated graphics cpu, and even if there was room the 200w power supply would probably prevent you from running high core count CPUs, which would have to throttle their performance due to poor cooling options anyway.

Worth considering whether a case like one of these would be an acceptable compromise on size, as they would give you more options:
https://store.overclockers.co.uk/ss...-case-full-mesh-black-pcie-3.0-ca-003-su.html
https://store.overclockers.co.uk/co...-itx-case-white-tempered-glass-ca-386-cm.html

In terms of b550 motherboards vs X570 I think the main difference is that the X570 chipset runs its lanes at v4 rather than v3 speeds, the most noticeable effect of that being that X570 boards can support 2 nvme drives running at pcie v4 speeds rather than just 1 on b550 boards, and can have more 10GB/s usb ports. For most uses you probably won't notice much difference, but X570 boards tend to be more 'high end', so more likely to have other things that add value such as 2.5g networking, stronger vrms, etc - that does depend on the specific motherboard though and you do get 'high end' b550 boards that have almost all the features you'd get on X570 boards.

Seems quite likely based on rumours that there will be another series of processors (potentially architecturally similar to the 5000 series, but with massive amounts of cache bolted on...) released on the AM4 socket, and both b550 and X570 boards should support them with a bios update. However that is still unofficial and unconfirmed atm I believe.
 
Last edited:
Hi, and thanks for the reply, it's really helpful.

Regarding case size and upgrade paths, you are right, but space is an issue at the moment, so if I ever want to upgrade this to include a dGPU, I will have to factor-in a new box + PSU, but that's the way it is unfortunately, in the grand scheme of things, these are some of the cheapest components to upgrade at least.

This will be used as development workstation so it needs to run multiple IDEs and a few docker images plus VMs, that's why I need the extra memory, 16 get taken fast when running the usual apps (plus about 100+ browser tabs..). I think 32 will do just about, if there is some disk swap hopefully the NVMEs will handle this fine. The price jump to 64 GB is quite a lot so no point spending there at the moment. The 3600Mhz seems like the best option in terms of speed, you are right. Looks like it's worth investing a bit more there and getting the Team Group you linked for the extra overclocking potential, as I am already saving by not getting a GPU, I just hope it fits in that small box with the extra heatspreader.

On the motherboard side of things, doesn't look great. Options are very few, with the 2 main brands in the ITX space being Asus and Gigabyte. Reading reviews, people generally think Asus has better quality builds, but people complain about all the motherboards available even though they are not cheap at around 150-200 pounds they all seem to have issues... nevertheless, need to choose something, so thinking to go with an Asus B550i type chipset for less noise, apparently the X type chipset fan is noisy according to reviews... this CPU does not support PCIe 4 anyway. This one seems to have good build quality and features https://store.overclockers.co.uk/as...-am4-b550-mini-itx-motherboard-mb-6fa-as.html

Still thinking if 2 NVME drives PCIe 3 in RAID 0 (either at BIOS or OS level) is a viable and worth it option with this setup, or if it will be a waste and will be limited by some other bottleneck in the system... the way I see it, even if the extra speed helps only in big file transfers and not in random access, it still is a plus... need to do more research on this
 
Last edited:
Sounds like you're on the right track then, as long as you've aware of potential future limitations can see the rationale for going as small form factor as possible. Yeah I wonder whether the ram height might be an issue, as the max cpu cooler height is listed as being 43mm, and the ram is taller than that. Then again the info does say you can remove the heat spreaders, but would probably want to ensure decent airflow to do that, which might be hard in that case.

Tbh I've not read many reviews of mini itx boards, but imagine that as long as it gets decent reviews and has the features (eg networking speed / WiFi, number of usb ports, number of HDMI / displayport outputs etc) you need you should be good. That one you linked looks decent to me. No idea about the practicalities and benefits of RAIDing nvme drives, so good luck with that!
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
Again, thanks for all the input. Here is the update:

Motherboard: Settled on the Asus B550i, I was debating between this and the Gigabyte one, so I downloaded and read the manuals of both of them, seems like the Asus is simply better put together and have some slightly better software/BIOS options.

Height of RAM stick should not be an issue based on what I read in some websites plus this box has 8 cm height and the RAM sticks need about 5, so this leaves 3 for the motherboard, should be enough.

Overclocking: I came to the realisation that I will be limited by low power supply and cooling, so not matter how much I would love to, it's kind of a mute point right now, I mean I can probably do a bit of it, but shouldn't make it the main focus right now. I found a really good page analysing in very much depth the overclocking of this particular APU 3700g https://skatterbencher.com/2021/04/27/skatterbencher-24-amd-ryzen-7-5700g-overclocked-to-4850-mhz/ and it became apparent you need quite a few extra Watts to get the most benefit.

Incidentally, I came across another similar but slightly bigger case that could be a good alternative as it can apparently host a bigger PSU, but I have already ordered the other box (though not shipped yet), so going through the hassle of cancellation and another order from USA, well I am not sure I have the time for it right now.... here is the link to the case for anyone reading this in the future Skyreach 4 TINY https://store.nfc-systems.com/products/skyreach-4-tiny with possible PSU like this HDPLEX 400W Hi-Fi DC-ATX Power Supply https://hdplex.com/hdplex-400w-hi-fi-dc-atx-power-supply-16v-24v-wide-range-voltage-input.html

M2 RAID: Cancelled that idea, after reading the motherboard manuals seems like it is not supported, and even if you can do it in software, the hassle for the benefit doesn't seem to be worth it. Probably best stick a 1 TB PCIe 4 in the slot near the CPU even though this CPU will only run it at v3, at least in a future upgrade the drive will be compatible.

Finally about RAM, I was checking options, even thinking going 64 GB to future proof the system. 16 GB are usually taken by IDEs and browsers, going with 32 means only 16 remain for docker images and VMs, basically I'd rather go for 64 and stop thinking about RAM space anymore. Seen some good offers on 2x32 sticks for about £260, reading through their spec I am debating between 3200MHz cl 16 or 3600 cl 18 specced here the dual kit, black https://www.teamgroupinc.com/en/catalog/act.php?act=2&index_id=1 any opinions on that?

Thanks again
 
Last edited:
Craig_d1 said:
must admit I like this case...comes in white also...thread about it here, and also a youtube review if you scroll down
Click to expand...

Thanks, that looks like a very high quality and premium case, if I end up up-sizing, then will be a good candidate. For now I am trying to stick to the smaller size, I already up-sized once, as I was originally planning a 65W Asrock X300 build.... https://www.asrock.com/nettop/AMD/DeskMini X300 Series/index.asp

I just felt the 65W would totally gimp the system performance, so went up from 15x15x8 cm 65W to about 24x22x8 and 200W PSU
 
So eventually I ended up going over budget... cost me around 2500... seems daft with new CPU releases around the corner, but thinking that I only build one PC every 10 years and I needed this one now, and I can't be bothered much with upgrades... made at least some sense... I thought why limit this CPU by the watt power? so I wanted a bigger power supply, which lead to a bigger case, by which point I thought, well I can fit a dGPU here now... and get a fully fledged CPU with all its cache...

I ended up using a case similar to the one suggested above by Craig, but quite cheaper, the Coolermaster NR200 - no glass variety, as I don't care much about visuals and I prefer the better airflow that the mesh model has. Below is a description of what I build together with the parts list and I will add some photos of the performance stats later when I find out how, I will add box photos later when I get some time, hopefully this will help anyone looking to do a similar build in the future.

It's still early days but the build looks good. I wanted something future-proof, small and quiet, mainly for work with the option for some gaming every now and then.

I was not sure about the air-cooling, but I wanted something quiet so I dropped the liquid cooling idea. Copes quite well with the case open, Cinebench R23 full load at room temperature 23 C, I get around 63 C, Max 67 C haven't tried closing the box yet, though it has enough breathing space on the sides, so it should work well.

I don't care much about RGB, so the motherboard has a few lights but that's all.

The 3060 was a good compromise, found the 12 GB OC model for decent price by total luck, I was going for a 1050 Ti for 200 pounds at that time but I thought for a bit more I can actually get a modern card, can be used for some medium gaming and AI projects that need Cuda cores, it takes less space than a 3080, and produces less heat and hopefully won't reach the 300W that starts the PSU spinning, and produces less heat. Happy with this choice.

Went with only 1 intake fan at the bottom because I bought a pack of 3 arctic P12 the Black PWM PST variety with extra splits! so I daisy chained all of them, I am not sure if the motherboard has enough fan power connectors otherwise - I got the 3 pack on amazon, they would not allow 4 in that order /facepalm ‍♂️ Originally I was planning 2 intake at the bottom, but finally the bottom fan sits a bit to the side of the 2 built-in card fans (as the card is rather short and doesn't go the full length), the idea here was to help with intake case airflow from below (I will add pics later)

2 exhaust fans at top, and then the CPU cooler has 2 fans, intake from the back. The PSU fan is to the side next to the base of the motherboard, though I am not sure it had to do any work yet. PSU will not spin when system load is less than 300W, for example it didn't even spin during the Cinebench test that had all CPUs at 100% for 10 minutes. That was the idea for choosing this PSU, to keep the system quiet by having as few fans spinning as possible.

Did a bit of undervolting by 10 units on the 5950 to give me about 100MHz for free (same TDP of 125W max). That was fairly easy to do in the Asus BIOS, there might be room for more here but frankly the CPU usually sits at 5% so there's no point getting greedy with this.

I was more interested to overclock the RAM though. Managed to stabilise the Crucial RAM at the advertised 3600MHz [16 18 18 38] - had to up the RAM voltage a bit for that at 1.37V rather than the rated 1.35V, and about 1.1V for the SoC if I remember correctly - I will post the exact number later. This was important, RAM very unstable with SoC at Auto which was like 0.9V. Default RAM was running on 2667MHz. Haven't tried to go over 3600, this is fast enough for me for now, but I might take a closer look in the future, not sure if there are any issues with the infinity fabric clock speed conflicting with the RAM clock, need to do some more reading on this when I get some time, if anyone can point me to a good link or post some opinion, it's appreciated.

Note that when I try multicore memtest86 it crashes after a few minutes, single core it passes fine, and in normal use it's been fine for a few days. I read on the memtest site that this is a known bug with multicore CPUs /shrug

Used the stock paste that comes with the fan, the motherboard was easy to work with and fit fine in the case even though it's slightly bigger than the standard ITX form factor (I think it's DTX), the M2 drives fit fine as well in the expansion card that comes with the motherboard for this purpose, and at idle they are on 41C so it's a good temp.

Did some cable management to tidy up, only issue was missing screws for the 3 case fans, I used the plastic stripes to secure them in place - 4 on each fan and seems OK. Fans when the system is idle are at around 800 RPM, quiet. Under load around 1200 RPM.

I haven't done heavy stability tests with this config and prime95 for example, but TBH this CPU runs at 5% most of the time anyway, so unless you are doing some mining or heavy video editing, not sure if you'd have stability issues with this build

In retrospect if there is one thing I could easily change to save money with my current use pattern, could have gone for the 12 core CPU or even the 8 core one, as I utilise it so little most of the time, but then again it's good to know you have the headroom in case you decide to run something really heavy on this like a kubernetes cluster with lots of containers doing stuff for example I guess... or some heavy AI training model or some video work or some parallel compiling. And by the moment you end up spending just over the 2000 mark, the extra 300 for a few more cores seems not so huge at that time... especially considering I won't be upgrading this...

Here is the final parts list:

  • CPU AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 3.4 GHz 16-Core £700.00
  • CPU Cooler Noctua NH-U12A 60.09 CFM £89.95
  • Motherboard Asus ROG Crosshair VIII Impact Mini DTX AM4 £328.55
  • Memory Crucial Ballistix 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR4-3600 CL16 £323.99
  • Storage 2 x Samsung 980 Pro 1 TB M.2-2280 NVME SSD £163.00 each
  • Video Card Asus GeForce RTX 3060 12 GB DUAL OC £540.00
  • Case Cooler Master MasterBox NR200 Mini ITX Desktop £67.42
  • Power Supply Corsair SF 750 W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully Modular SFX £124.98
  • Case Fan 3 x ARCTIC P12 PWM PST 56.3 CFM 120 mm £7.47 each
 
Last edited:
yeah TBH I never had a proper gaming card so I'd like to be able to play a game whenever I have some free time at decent graphics, I always played on ultra low, which was fine until the lockdown happened... so I thought better be prepared just in case! It just felt wrong building something with so many high-end components, and then throw a mediocre 6 year old card in it, even if not gaming much I am sure will be useful if for example want to drive multiple monitors, this one has 3 display port and 1 HDMI outputs for example.

The are some AI related libraries that apparently run much faster on these cards due to parallel execution, I haven't looked much into it yet due to lack of free time, but it's in my radar for when I get the chance, so I'd rather have the option than not when the time comes, if it makes sense
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom