New generation of 23"-24" WS LCD monitors available now!

[igors]

Philips 230WP7NS 23"

http://www.consumer.philips.com/con...&proxybuster=DHUASS2DYI23PJ0RMRCSHQNHKFSESI5P

Specs for the Philips are definitely S-IPS panel look alike. Ergonomics are superb (swivel/tilt/pivot is supported), 0.258 pixel pitch is very nice and generally Philips is good LCD manufacturer.

Essentially, I think that it's better that you have the 23" with fine 0.258 pixel pitch (and better picture quality) then to go with just 1" more and gain just slightly better screen size but loose other things. It may quite happen that 23" monitors will be the sweet spot when you consider the picture quality and price.

New LM230WU3 LCD panel from LG.Philips is available (same 1600:1 AS-IPS as NEC 20WGC2) and question is who will integrate this panel ? If NEC comes with the 23" version, that monitor will blow everything around


HP LP2465 24"

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/uk/en/sm/WF06a/20491-156249-156249-156249-172197-12401732.html

This one is very interesting. Excellent 6 ms (typical gray to gray), 13 ms (rise and fall) and 1000:1 contrast ratio may suggest that it's using the S-PVA panel (as Samsung) but option for the AUO M-PVA is also not excluded. HP is respectable manufacturer and service quality should be good as well.

Why, why and just why is so problematic for the manufactures to spec the panel type. It would be much easier for the consumers, as they would know what to expect from the screen as each panel has it's own advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Baddass]

The HP LP2465 looks like it's using the 24"WS S-PVA panel from Samsung (LTM240M2) as the Acer 2416W and forthcoming Dell 2407WFP. The Philips looks nice too, but I can't help but feel the spec isn't quite up to modern standards when you look at other 23"-24" models around....

 

[UOcUK Poopscoop]

He's after your job Baddass.

 

[igors]

The HP LP2465 looks like it's using the 24"WS S-PVA panel from Samsung (LTM240M2) as the Acer 2416W and forthcoming Dell 2407WFP.

Hmmm ... LTM240M2 is also present in the Samsung 244T and that monitor is suffering from the serious input lag. Also, Samsung is known to over-rate their response times and S-PVA overdrive is sluggish, so I would be very careful here ... unless viewing angles and gaming (because of the input lag) are not the primary subject for the monitor usage. If Dell 2407WFP is jumping on the same wagon, that would be the downgrade and not upgrade imo.

Gaming situation for the 23" - 24" LCD monitors can be quite tricky for the future. DX10 is around the corner and probability is really high that gaming coders will massively use the pixel shaders. In other words, any DX9 rig would receive pretty god performance hit and question is even how the next gen DX10 cards will handle the latest gaming content. Hidden message for the large LCD screen gamers is that they will start to scale down rapidly their "playable" resolutions. For the large 23" and above LCD screens that doesn't look good, for sure. Yes, monitor may scale down the resolution ... but with such pixel pitch and screen size you are practically wasting the monitor resources.

Will see.

The Philips looks nice too, but I can't help but feel the spec isn't quite up to modern standards when you look at other 23"-24" models around....

Yes, sometimes they have that "technology" lag ... but hopefully things will improve on that field also.

 

[igors]

He's after your job Baddass.

Naaah, I already have the super steady job ... or so ?

 

[Baddass]

Hmmm ... LTM240M2 is also present in the Samsung 244T and that monitor is suffering from the serious input lag. Also, Samsung is known to over-rate their response times and S-PVA overdrive is sluggish, so I would be very careful here ... unless viewing angles and gaming (because of the input lag) are not the primary subject for the monitor usage. If Dell 2407WFP is jumping on the same wagon, that would be the downgrade and not upgrade imo.

ignoring any input lag for a second, the 6ms G2G upgrade was reported to be pretty good by BeHardware with some decent improvements in responsiveness. I think this is a good improvement over the 01 version (ie 16ms / 12ms models like Dell 2405FPW etc) in terms of pixel latency. Like you say, Samsung have had a tough time controlling the RTC application on their panels, and i would very much like to see some of these new 24"WS panels covered by other reputable review sites like THG and XBit Labs for instance

 

[icemansin]

Sorry to go a little off-topic here but are there any forthcoming 20 inch monitors (apart from the Dell 2007WFP) that sounds really promising from the specs?

Thanks

 

[kleox64]

I was under the impression that the new HP is using the AUO P-MVA panel as the viewing angles match, I doubt HP would be using samsung panels in thier products considering they were using LG S-IPS panels before.

IMO HP would have noticed the issues (viewing angles, input lag etc...) surrounding PVA panels and consider something else.

Spec for the AUO panel:

http://www.auo.com/auoDEV/products.php?sec=monitor&func=info&product_id=6&items_id=1

 

[igors]

Spec for the AUO panel:

http://www.auo.com/auoDEV/products.php?sec=monitor&func=info&product_id=6&items_id=1

That was actually the source of my confusion, also. As this panel was available from Q1 06, I had the thought that HP opted for this panel and with slightly "faster" overdrive implementation and those viewing angles are definitely comparable. I guess that at this stage, probably HP would be the preferable source of the information about the panel type. Hopefully HP didn't scaled down other screen aspects in the favour of the response time. As it stands, HP contract with LG.Phillips is probably ?! still in place ... so they will maybe refresh their 23" range with some nice LG.Philips IPS panel. My guess is that because of the higher production costs of the IPS panels, some manufactures are simply avoiding them in the 23" - 24" range.

 

[kleox64]

Iam only gona consider AS-IPS to be safe, large PVA panels have serious viewing angle issues especially the large screens which have discolouration on the sides because they are so big. Also the input lag problem.

 

[BubbySoup]

Gaming situation for the 23" - 24" LCD monitors can be quite tricky for the future. DX10 is around the corner and probability is really high that gaming coders will massively use the pixel shaders. In other words, any DX9 rig would receive pretty god performance hit and question is even how the next gen DX10 cards will handle the latest gaming content. Hidden message for the large LCD screen gamers is that they will start to scale down rapidly their "playable" resolutions. For the large 23" and above LCD screens that doesn't look good, for sure. Yes, monitor may scale down the resolution ... but with such pixel pitch and screen size you are practically wasting the monitor resources.

This is something I have been thinking about for a while now. I really like my 2405, but I can see the massive resolution becoming a money pit in the future, if I want to keep my gameplay smooth and all the detail at max.

Very seriously considering downgrading to a 21" widescreen atm.

 

[igors]

Sorry to go a little off-topic here but are there any forthcoming 20 inch monitors (apart from the Dell 2007WFP) that sounds really promising from the specs?

As far as I can see, nothing which we can classify as the breakthrough. We've already seen some major 20" models refresh this year.

- It's already reported that Dell 2007WFP is suffering from the serious colour banding problems and generally colour reproduction is not comparable (negatively) even with the 2005 version. This may rise the question which panel is this model using, is it up to the standards and if maybe Dell was using the cheaper parts in other to maintain relatively good price. It's rather confusing situation, many people in the US are returning their 2007 and it may happen that Dell 2007 model is something to avoid, for now.

- 20" WS LG L203wt (US version) is rather interesting. It has massive 1400:1 contrast ratio, nice 8ms response time and f-engine (something similar to LG.Philips DFC). However, it's reported that poor viewing angles are present on this model and despite that nice contrast rate, picture is so so and that colour banding is present (as if the panel is 6-bits). That may suggest that this monitor is using the TN panel which may sound as the great surprise as you would expect that LG is loyal to the LG.Philips high quality IPS panels and loyal IPS consumers-supporters may expect that too. At the end, this may come as no surprise, as LG is sometimes deliberately masking the panel origin and using other contractors or subsidiaries.

- 21" WS Samsung 215TW is using the S-PVA LTM240M2 panel, as we already discussed above and the spec are really the same. It's still unclear if the new panel revision is in place which could possible cure the historic input lag and poor viewing angles. Of course, further testing or reviews will probably clarify this a bit more.

 

[icemansin]

Thank you Igors for the in-depth response. I have also heard about the colour banding issue with the Dell 2007, so that definitely seems out of the question for me. So i guess that it does seem as if the NEC LCD20WGX2 will the best 20 inch monitor for a while as there really doesnt seem to any promising monitor(s) forthcoming in the nearest future.

Do you think the 20 inch monitors will improve by much this year, or do you think that we have now reached the sweet spot for 20" monitors range? Will the focus change to larger size monitors?

 

[Baddass]

That was actually the source of my confusion, also. As this panel was available from Q1 06, I had the thought that HP opted for this panel and with slightly "faster" overdrive implementation and those viewing angles are definitely comparable. I guess that at this stage, probably HP would be the preferable source of the information about the panel type. Hopefully HP didn't scaled down other screen aspects in the favour of the response time. As it stands, HP contract with LG.Phillips is probably ?! still in place ... so they will maybe refresh their 23" range with some nice LG.Philips IPS panel. My guess is that because of the higher production costs of the IPS panels, some manufactures are simply avoiding them in the 23" - 24" range.

while the spec of the AUO P-MVA panel seems to match, the spec from Samsung's LTM240M2 also matches, save the slight discrepency in viewing angles. Clearly quoting a viewing angle of 180/180 is a bit optimistic from Samsung though

HP have been known to use Samsung panels in the past though, more so than AUO panels certainly. For instance, the HP F2105 (LTM210M2 S-PVA). Like you say, they tend to use LG.Phlips IPS panels though mostly, but the spec certainly suggests this one is not of that technology.

Do you think the 20 inch monitors will improve by much this year, or do you think that we have now reached the sweet spot for 20" monitors range? Will the focus change to larger size monitors?

Certainly not! The 20" range is only just starting to grow and i would think there will still be a large R&D focus in this sector for another year or so. Remember that larger panels, while being developed a little, are a lot more scarce, and manufacturers recognise that these are very much for high end systems and powerful graphics cards on the most part. As such, the 20" market, particularly WS, would be the area in most devlopment right now and probably for the rest of the year. Sure, there will be some growth in the larger sector, but 20" is where the push is right now.

I would say there has been a massive improvement in the 20" arena recently, with some landmark models like the NEC LCD20GX2 really helping to make this sector popular. However, there are still some improvements to be made. AS-IPS is good, but black depth doesn't quite match VA panels in some cases. This will no doubt improve, and technologies like DFC which are emerging are bound to help here. Movie playback is an area which lets these screens down however, and this needs to be ironed out imo. We will no doubt see some other models using the same panel as the NEC which will offer some variety in models available, and hopefully as LG.Philips improve the panels, the issues mentioned will begin to improve as well

 

[igors]

So i guess that it does seem as if the NEC LCD20WGX2 will the best 20 inch monitor for a while as there really doesnt seem to any promising monitor(s) forthcoming in the nearest future.

Honestly, I would not like to be judgmental here to such extent that I dismiss anything else in order to feed my purchasing ego. That wouldn't help anyone. For me, NEC fulfilled really everything I wanted from the LCD screen (and some screen aspects were really above my expectations) and when you combine the fact that I'm picky, detailed, skeptic and that I came from the holy CRT grounds, it must be a great screen no doubt. I would be happy to see something that rival NEC, just for fun.

Do you think the 20 inch monitors will improve by much this year, or do you think that we have now reached the sweet spot for 20" monitors range?

I'm not sure if you are asking this because of the purchasing decision or just for the chit-chat. Actually, this year 20" WS market exploded and we have many LCD screens around and that is always a good sign as I personally think that 20" WS is the future. OK ... maybe not for the professional, enthusiasts or office work but for the rest of us definitely. Technology wise it's difficult to define the sweet spot, really. Also what may be the sweet spot for you, doesn't necessary means that it's for someone else. This year on Cebit, some new developments related to the LCD response times are revealed and that includes the Samsung MPA technology and AUO BFI (black frame insertion). They are focusing strictly on the "perceptive" improvements on the LCD response times and my feeling is that this will end up on the larger monitors sector. Yes, response times are important bit, but let's hope that this will not be the only thing in the focus. Honestly, I'm perfectly happy with the response times I have now, so not sure how much space we have left for the improvements. As with any technology, I'm also not sure in reality what such improvements may bring to us. Then, you have the famous OLED (led backlight technology) and no one is sure when it will be ready & widely available and how LCD monitors will be affected. Related to your question, I doubt that this year you will see some "massive" breakthrough.

Will the focus change to larger size monitors?

Large LCD screens are still somewhat addressing the enthusiast market. Price is the premium, picture quality is usually not comparable to smaller screens, gaming is questionable although some improvements are visible recently. Another factor is the associated high-end hardware for such screens. Apart from the LCD screen price you usually have to invest massively for the hardware in order to use the monitor resolutions in full glory. If the prices are more friendly and screen quality is equal or better than on the selected 20" models (and that also includes the response times) I may be tempted. For now, idle game is ON. This is maybe also the answer to your question. Yes, large LCD screens will develop but not on such scale as 20" and market focus change from the 20" ... definitely not.


btw nice questions, not only for this thread but for the forum also.

 

[igors]

Clearly quoting a viewing angle of 180/180 is a bit optimistic from Samsung though

I'm not surprised

AS-IPS is good, but black depth doesn't quite match VA panels in some cases.

Interesting statement. For example, when probably calibrated and with Advanced DVM ON, measurable black levels on the NEC AS-IPS screen is around 0.2 and on some places they measured it even around 0.1. That's pretty good in my book. Not to mention the perceptive level (additionally because of the OptiClear) which is even better and many user reports are confirming this. What cases are you referring to ?

Movie playback is an area which lets these screens down however, and this needs to be ironed out imo.

I think that I read somewhere couple of days ago that on some high-end NEC monitors, when accessing the special menu, you can actually turn the overdrive on/off. That's very surprising & interesting feature and it may actually be the answer for the people who are picky about the movie playback. Actually not just for the movie playback, but for other monitor aspects when overdrive is introducing the side effects. It's excellent that you are able to switch it on/off and hopefully we will see this feature on some LCD screens in the future.

Of course, it's unfair to expect that LCD monitors are on the same level as dedicated movie machines (like modern LCD TV sets) ... but I think personally that current situation is not so dramatic. However, as you mentioned, improvements in this category are always healthy.

 

[Baddass]

Interesting statement. For example, when probably calibrated and with Advanced DVM ON, measurable black levels on the NEC AS-IPS screen is around 0.2 and on some places they measured it even around 0.1. That's pretty good in my book. Not to mention the perceptive level (additionally because of the OptiClear) which is even better and many user reports are confirming this. What cases are you referring to ?

I had heard a few reports about the black being a little better on the P-MVA panels, but nothing drastic. On the other hand, i have heard good things about the black depth on the NEC as well, so it's all horses for courses Bit-tech compared the two here:

"Display Mate: The greys in our banding test had a slight blue tinge, but this is more of a 'characteristic' of the display, with a slight blue cast on whites giving a fairly good picture. The definition of individual shades at the ends of the scale was worse than on the NEC, but it was crucially able to sustain a better balance between white and black than that display, giving it a better range of colour. We thought that whites looked better than blacks, and other colours were well balanced.

Quake 4: Proving that artificial tests aren't everything, we found this the best display for gaming, hands down. Playing our dark Quake level, we were able to pick out more detail than on any other display. There was a great differential of blacks, and the greys and whites were maintained at a good level. We maxed out the brightness and contrast and thought that the picture was as close to a good CRT as we've seen on a LCD.

Crouching Tiger: We thought the same about our video test. There was the most detail found in the picture than of any panel, and the most realistic blacks and greys. The colour was at a good level - not over saturated and not under bright. There seemed to be less grain and the whites were less blown out than on the NEC panel.

Miami Vice: Capping off a three from three, this was definitely the best picture of the test. Colours were more even, with very black areas containing more detail."

I think that I read somewhere couple of days ago that on some high-end NEC monitors, when accessing the special menu, you can actually turn the overdrive on/off. That's very surprising & interesting feature and it may actually be the answer for the people who are picky about the movie playback. Actually not just for the movie playback, but for other monitor aspects when overdrive is introducing the side effects. It's excellent that you are able to switch it on/off and hopefully we will see this feature on some LCD screens in the future.

i think i might know where you read that (link)

This year on Cebit, some new developments related to the LCD response times are revealed and that includes the Samsung MPA technology and AUO BFI (black frame insertion). They are focusing strictly on the "perceptive" improvements on the LCD response times and my feeling is that this will end up on the larger monitors sector. Yes, response times are important bit, but let's hope that this will not be the only thing in the focus. Honestly, I'm perfectly happy with the response times I have now, so not sure how much space we have left for the improvements. As with any technology, I'm also not sure in reality what such improvements may bring to us. Then, you have the famous OLED (led backlight technology) and no one is sure when it will be ready & widely available and how LCD monitors will be affected. Related to your question, I doubt that this year you will see some "massive" breakthrough.

like you say, if we move away from "which sized screens are being focused on" and look at technolgy then there are some interesting and exciting new developements coming through including MPA, BFI, OLED, and the likes. These will hopefully help improve things, there are still improvements to be made



ps, im enjoying the discussion

 

[igors]

I have also heard about the colour banding issue with the Dell 2007, so that definitely seems out of the question for me

Couple of quick programs for the colour gradients testing and they should give pretty much confident information about the panel capabilities (not sure if they are developed by xtnight from Anandtech forums, but anyhow it's fair enough to mention):

http://xtknight.atothosting.com/tools/gradlin-v0.2-fs.exe
http://xtknight.atothosting.com/lcdtest/purplegreen2.png

On the first test, every second row should display nice & smooth gradients. On the second picture, you should have smooth circle transitions from inside out. For the both tests, gradients should be uniform without any particular distortion,banding and without any other colour in the gradient gamut.

It's nice & quick thingy for the monitor tests. On NEC, they are perfect. However, majority of the Dell 2007 screens are showing the problems in the colour gradients and colour uniformity. I'm really starting to wonder that 2007 is really 6-bit panel.

 

[igors]

I had heard a few reports about the black being a little better on the P-MVA panels, but nothing drastic. On the other hand, i have heard good things about the black depth on the NEC as well, so it's all horses for courses Bit-tech compared the two

OK ... let's go from the beginning, if I have enough time ... . I will not quote you on the comments below, as those are not your words. It's going slightly OT, but hopefully thread readers wouldn't mind.

"Display Mate: The greys in our banding test had a slight blue tinge, but this is more of a 'characteristic' of the display, with a slight blue cast on whites giving a fairly good picture. The definition of individual shades at the ends of the scale was worse than on the NEC, but it was crucially able to sustain a better balance between white and black than that display, giving it a better range of colour. We thought that whites looked better than blacks, and other colours were well balanced.
"

- In which sense is that slight blue tinge on grey and slight blue cast on whites "characteristic" ? It's simply poor colour reproduction and it's known that such panels are pretty much "standard" on that part. If the definition of the individual shades at any part of the scale is not satisfactory, your are dealing with the colour banding and monitor colour dithering software is struggling to reproduce the colour gradients on the acceptable level. How come that balance between white and black is giving the better colour gamut ?! I can understand that good contrast ratio is somewhat "exposing" more colours in the gamut, but such explanation is far away from the properly elaborated one. Many other factors are involved for the good colour gamut. If colours are not properly balanced on the NEC screen, I simply don't know where they are. Even for the out of the box product it's superb, and I guess that some people simply don't want to bother to calibrate their monitors ... and if you have the product which out of the box is giving you great colour balance, that's always on the plus side. Even some people with the Optical Spyder (hardware calibrator) reverted back to the native monitor colour profile as it worked better.

"
Quake 4: Proving that artificial tests aren't everything, we found this the best display for gaming, hands down. Playing our dark Quake level, we were able to pick out more detail than on any other display. There was a great differential of blacks, and the greys and whites were maintained at a good level. We maxed out the brightness and contrast and thought that the picture was as close to a good CRT as we've seen on a LCD.
"

OK ... P-MVA is good for gaming, but hands down ?! I wonder if they played with the Advanced DVM at all ?! If they "maxed out the brightness and contrast and thought that the picture was as close to a good CRT as we've seen on a LCD." ... that "testing method" simply doesn't make any sense. Seriously. Overall, NEC is so close and for some users way beyond the CRT levels. It's not my ego trip, it was confirmed by others. OK ...they were able to pick up more details in the dark, but does it mean that "dark" is maybe "bright". Good monitor will try to balance the dark scenes "darkness" and proper game play (as CRT monitors usually do and NEC is surpisingly close here) and you really don't have to pick up really "every" detail in the dark. It's simply not necessary, mostly because of the gaming immersion. I already mentioned that in the review, when comparing the Advanced DVM screens, Another note is that AR coating of the normal panels is simply "matt" and "fuzzy" to me and it will always contribute to the fact that black scenes looks more "bright". On contrary, because of the nature of the NEC panel and coating, black is simply "deep". Another important fact is that tweaking friendly nature of the NEC, so that it can easily adapt to any preference and more imporantly you have to *play* with the settings to expose the full monitor potential. While we are on the gaming subject, big minus of the ViewSonic P-MVA panel is that it's unable to do the 1:1 pixel scaling and NEC resolution scaling is much more developed. This is important thing for the gaming users who have to scale down their resolutions.


"
Crouching Tiger: We thought the same about our video test. There was the most detail found in the picture than of any panel, and the most realistic blacks and greys. The colour was at a good level - not over saturated and not under bright. There seemed to be less grain and the whites were less blown out than on the NEC panel.

Miami Vice: Capping off a three from three, this was definitely the best picture of the test. Colours were more even, with very black areas containing more detail."[/i]
"

If panel has the excellent colour reproduciton, clarity and deep blacks, I guess that this will reflect in the movies also ?! (at least for me). OK grain is probably more present, but how much is that affecting the movie watching from the relative distance ? Same thing for OptiClear.

Compared to VS P-MVA, NEC AS-IPS panel is really on the different level (and when you consider the price also). This is the reason why such reviews are sometimes problematic as some monitor may receive the credit just because of the price. Fair enough, but that would not satisfy the people who have the appetite for the "technology" challenge and usually don't mind the gentle price difference. This is the reason why I like the TFTcentral comparisons. They would give you the hones input, based on the relevant facts, user opinions and it's up to you to decide which path you want to follow, according to your financial position, preferred monitor usage and personal preference.

Actually, Simon, you know what ... I'm tired to review the reviews anymore, seriously. It's such pain, it's not inspiring and I don't like such feeling. Let the users talk.

i think i might know where you read that (link)

I wish! It was spotted on some web site couple of days ago, can't remember from where. I tried to access the secret menu on the 20WGX2, but no joy.

Oh yes, welcome to wsgf! Simon, you are such forum b***h lol

ps, im enjoying the discussion

That's the spirit.

 

[icemansin]

Thanks Igor and Baddass for your in-depth responses, I appreciate it. Your knowledge of the subject area really helps novices like me. Oh yeah and sorry for going off-topic before.