New Marantz AVR and Audyssey?

Scam · 13 Feb 2018 at 12:41

So, when I quickly set up my new SR5012 I went through the Audyssey stuff and noticed it set my speakers as large. I have two floorstanding Gale 3030s in a 2.0 set-up. I had read that it often does this and that it was "best" to set them to small. So I did that.

Everything was fine and dandy, sounded great. Apart from I started playing around in the manual settings last weekend and obviously changed something, because we were watching Friend's last night on Netflix and every time the sting of music came on in-between scenes the speakers were making a sort-of farting sound in the bass :confused:

I checked the settings and I had accidentally reverted my speakers to "large". I set them back to "small" but what I noticed is that I can't turn off the subwoofer option when I do so :confused:

So, Audyssey thinks I have 2.1 with "small" speakers, but I really only have 2.0. Is this the correct set-up? What about LFE and crossover settings? (Things I know nothing about)

tldr; With a 2.0 setup what should I have my Audyssey set to? :confused:

EDIT: I am using Pure Direct mode for my music listening, so I'm only talking about stereo for movies/TV here

1pudding1 · 13 Feb 2018 at 13:07

Set them to large. Only use small if you then set a frequency crossover to use with a subwoofer. You want the whole signal and all the bass going to the main and only speakers here.

1pudding1 · 13 Feb 2018 at 13:13

Also, why have you bought an AVR if you've only got 2 speakers?

Scam · 13 Feb 2018 at 13:47

1pudding1 said:
Also, why have you bought an AVR if you've only got 2 speakers?

Because my hifi amp was dying, I wanted to simplify my set-up, and I may upgrade to 5.1 at some point in the future. This AVR is a long-term purchase.

But mainly because my hifi amp was dying and running optical out of my TV for audio, and running 6+ HDMI devices on a switcher and all the remotes that came with those 6+ devices was just horrendous

How do I know if my speakers are "large" and can handle full range? :confused:

This thread was an interesting read but doesn't offer suggestions for a 2.0 setup, only 2.1

1pudding1 · 13 Feb 2018 at 17:54

Well, you've just got to hope for the best with the speakers you have and send the full signal. They'll reproduce the lower frequencies as best they can. I guess the only reason to set them to small and apply a crossover to them is if you find at the volumes you listen to the speakers can't handle the full freq range and sound awful, in that case I'd prob say time for new speakers, or better for future proofing, a subwoofer. Or 2

hornetstinger · 13 Feb 2018 at 21:56

Buy a sub, set to small.
Your speakers are not full range so when you set to large your speakers will attempt to reproduce those frequencies but they cannot.

Setting to small and not being able to set sun to off is normal.

For a speaker to be classified as full range means being able to reproduce 20hz to 20khz. You are talking big money and speakers with 12" subwoofer built into each tower. Something like definitive technology BP 2000 series.

lucid · 14 Feb 2018 at 14:59

If the speakers keep reverting to Full Range (Large etc) Audyssey is telling you that your speaker setting makes no sense.

Most speakers have some kind of frequency limit with the bass. Really small speakers produce very little bass; bigger speakers produce more. It's not a hard thing to understand. However, unless you have a sub in your 5.1 system then you have to let the speaker setting be "Large" for the front pair. Yes, they may not produce earth shaking bass or the the lowest notes from electronic music or pipe organs, that's just the way it is. Your Gales have a natural roll off the same as any speaker that can't get down to 20Hz. However, that doesn't mean you should artificially limit the frequencies going to them.

Put it a different way, when you had the stereo amp, did you worry about limiting the frequencies going to the Gales then? No, you didn't. The amp sent 20Hz-20kHz and the speakers reproduced what they could given the size of driver and the cabinet dimensions. The roll off takes care of this crazy notion of speakers "attempting to reproduce frequencies they can't ". If say 40Hz is below what the Gale 3030 speakers can do then they'll either not respond at all, or they'll produce a much lower level of sound at that frequency compared to frequencies where the speaker is more capable.

If the speaker made a farting noise, then you're either hearing air from the bass port or the bass driver is bottoming out.

hornetstinger · 14 Feb 2018 at 15:06

lucid said:
Put it a different way, when you had the stereo amp, did you worry about limiting the frequencies going to the Gales then? No, you didn't. The amp sent 20Hz-20kHz and the speakers reproduced what they could given the size of driver and the cabinet dimensions. The roll off takes care of this crazy notion of speakers "attempting to reproduce frequencies they can't ". If say 40Hz is below what the Gale 3030 speakers can do then they'll either not respond at all, or they'll produce a much lower level of sound at that frequency compared to frequencies where the speaker is more capable.

If the speaker made a farting noise, then you're either hearing air from the bass port or the bass driver is bottoming out.

Movies have far more lower frequencies, in music it's unlikely you'll ever have that problem with driver bottoming out. You can have insane dB output in a Hifi, with floorstanders with music from a CD. With movies it can happen all the time, I was pretty scared just how much the bass drivers moved in big pair of floorstanders set to large, and that was at lower volumes. I don't believe speakers do have a crossover which'll filter out say <20hz it'll try to play those frequencies, usually with lots of cone movement, distortion, port noise etc.

They don't have sub sonic filter either.

If your sources are just regular TV sure set them to large, but for movies? I'd buy a sub ASAP. It'll improve the sound as your speakers won't be receving full range and that frees up amplifier power as well.

jpaul · 14 Feb 2018 at 15:19

Can you not actually damage the Gales 3030's if you do send them low frequency effects too ? - depending on the amount of current the amplifier pushes
(just use some >50hz 2.0 speakers myself)

hornetstinger · 14 Feb 2018 at 20:11

jpaul said:
Can you not actually damage the Gales 3030's if you do send them low frequency effects too ? - depending on the amount of current the amplifier pushes
(just use some >50hz 2.0 speakers myself)

That questions relies on too many variables.

Source material - what movie, what scene
Speaker type, specs, and frequnecy response
Amplifier power
Required output levels, dB meter at speaker (for reference)
Bass managment setting
Bass/treble control setting
DSP setting

It could be yes, no or just maybe. A AVR may clip but a big powerful amp may not.

jpaul · 14 Feb 2018 at 21:32

I think you asnwered my question in your 3:06 reply, I had not seen as I posted.

hornetstinger said:
I was pretty scared just how much the bass drivers moved in big pair of floorstanders set to large

movies do indeed seem to have the most potential for damage, to the degree that I wonder if they are irresponsible putting high impulses on the soundtracks.
(would be interesting to know, for those who pay for accidental damage on home insurance could they claim ? ... Dunkirk ruined my speakers )

I had tried some of the low frequency tests on youtube a while back; unfortunately cannot now find them in my history, but they were scary

hornetstinger · 14 Feb 2018 at 22:05

to the degree that I wonder if they are irresponsible putting high impulses on the soundtracks.

Not really that's why subs exist, I wouldn't want LFE to be limited on my high end sub.

Although I think it may be a good idea to offer sub sonic filter in bass management setting. Say you have a cheapo sub that you know reaches down to 35hz. You set a sub sonic filter so at 35hz it adds a sub sonic filter, so the sub doesn't try and play those frequncies.

And the same sub sonic filter for the 7.0 speakers too, if you set sub to off, speakers to large, you can add a sub sonic filter to those speakers as well, you will be losing bass info as no LFE, and <lf cut on the 7.0 speakers but you can adjust that filter so not being sent 20hz.

Also a feature like Lexicons own, but maybe for all speakers and sub too, but also factor in low frequencies too.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/157534-understanding-subwoofer-peak-limiter-mc-1-a.html

Just pure conjecture maybe good idea?

jpaul · 14 Feb 2018 at 23:29

sounds a good idea, I am always a bit sceptical on the capabilities of dsp sound processing to modify the sound without itself introducing distortion and compounding room acoustic problems ... but I have an audioloab with no tone controls.

Subwoofering: 15 Movies with Killer Bass
interesting to see the Abyss was a amongst them ... with Apollo 13 , but perhaps needs updating now.

hornetstinger · 14 Feb 2018 at 23:41

You could add high pass filter into your system. Either a sub with this or outlaw icbm1.

Got audiolab hifi as well, a 8000q, two pcs outlaw icbm1 and sub.

Sub has high pass but I use the hp in the icbm1.

Works well.

james.miller · 15 Feb 2018 at 11:37

With a 2.0 setup, i dont see the issue with setting the speakers to small if the high pass filter can be set low enough. Unfortunately on most amps i dont think it can, ie the lowest i can go is 40hz which isnt really useful if used solely as a high pass for the fronts without a subwoofer for the bottom end.