No such thing as 'fat but fit'

[Psycho Sonny]

Where do Sumo Wrestlers fall in this topic?

not sure if serious.

they do next to zero proper training. there whole sport revolves around being able to push someone out of a tiny circle. it's easier to push someone if you have more mass.

put it this way anyone who is fit can usually do alright at various sports which involve cardio. football, cycling, boxing, running, etc. i'd like to see a sumo play football and be alright. he would be knackered within 3 minutes and pretty much dead weight within a team. whereas you can take someone who is fit (but completely useless at football) and train them to man mark someone at least.

 

[Amp34]

I cant see any decent doctor quoting bmi as its a ******** measurement. As stated above anyone with muscle gets classed as obese (rugby players for example). Its a joke of a measurement.

So that's counts for the 200 professional rugby players, what about the tens of thousands of amateurs? A significant proportion of those will be exactly who the findings are aimed at. They may be fit, but that doesn't mean they are not more likely to suffer from heart disease if they are are carrying a "bit of extra weight" - which tom experience is a significant proportion, especially if they are forwards.

You must be very small. Are you a chimney sweep by trade?

I've a 32" waist and am BMI ~22.5, which is about in the middle. And A lot of people seem to think I'm skinny (I'm not - they're just all fat)

Same. But when you consider the majority of the population (~>65%) are overweight and around a third obese - the vast majority not world champion weight lifters and athletes - you realise that "normal" is unhealthy, so anyone "abnormally" slim (i.e. within a healthy BMI range) would u default be considered to be skinny.

A mate of mine has a beer belly, which by definition is fat. Yes he's a triathlete and would put a lot of people to shame.

Yet he's probably still more likely to die of heart disease/coronary issue than someone without a beer belly. That's the point of the study, to show that extra fat is not cancelled out by fitness.

The article also mentions a large scale study that looked at fitness when young. Being slim and fit when young significantly reduced probability of having heart disease, but the reduction was cancelled out if they were overweight when older.

Whether you're skinny and unfit is besides the point as well. The aim is to be slim and fit, not slim and unfit, or fat and fit. You need both, and you can't just offset one by being the other (I.e. being "fat and fit" isn't going to help).

 

[Arazi]

not sure if serious.

they do next to zero proper training. there whole sport revolves around being able to push someone out of a tiny circle. it's easier to push someone if you have more mass.

put it this way anyone who is fit can usually do alright at various sports which involve cardio. football, cycling, boxing, running, etc. i'd like to see a sumo play football and be alright. he would be knackered within 3 minutes and pretty much dead weight within a team. whereas you can take someone who is fit (but completely useless at football) and train them to man mark someone at least.

They still need to be very fit, think about the size of the opponent you have to move, beside your own weight. I'll turn it around, put a footballer in the ring with a Sumo wrestler, footballer wouldnt last 30 seconds.

So I was watching this show on obesity and there was a part where they compared regular obese people with obese SUMO wrestlers. The main differences were that Sumos had nearly %100 percent of their body fat was subcontaneous, which is very important for remaining healthy, as I understand it. They then got into the Sumo's regular workout regime which consists of waking before dawn and working out for 5 hours on an empty stomach. Obviously they eat right after but then only one other time during the day which happens to be right before bed. According to them this allows the body to pack on a lot of muscle and obviously fat but since the workouts are so extremely intense the body does not store the fat within the muscles/organs because it would inhibit performance. Also, they claimed to typically eat 20,000 calories a day which is 10,000 per meal. Just wondering what you guys think about training like this. I always thought if you trained that hard on an empty stomach you would be prone to injury sooner or later, but whats your take.

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=118514671

That was a quick google, i am no expert but would like to know how this topic fits with Sumo's.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

They still need to be very fit, think about the size of the opponent you have to move, beside your own weight.



https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=118514671

That was a quick google, i am no expert but would like to know how this topic fits with Sumo's.

here is a quick google for you

"The negative health effects of the sumo lifestyle can become apparent later in life. Sumo wrestlers have a life expectancy between 60 and 65, more than 10 years shorter than the average Japanese male"

so like i said they aren't fit at all. being fit usually means you have a higher life expectancy than the average male. there are exceptions to the rule but generally as a whole that is the whole definition of being fit and healthy.

 

[Felon]

Regardless of the science behind whether Sumo wrestlers are fit or not (I'm pretty sure they're all literally not fit) the vast majority of them are dead at around age 60... so, that kinda says it all really for me.

Edit, beaten by above,

 

[Amp34]

here is a quick google for you

"The negative health effects of the sumo lifestyle can become apparent later in life. Sumo wrestlers have a life expectancy between 60 and 65, more than 10 years shorter than the average Japanese male"

so like i said they aren't fit at all. being fit usually means you have a higher life expectancy than the average male. there are exceptions to the rule but generally as a whole that is the whole definition of being fit and healthy.

Actually if you look at what the study says it's perfectly possible for sumo wrestlers to be fit and still have a life expectancy lower than average. They probably are fit in their own way, their leg muscles are probably huge for example, but all the excess fat they are carrying will be severely detrimental to their health late in life.

Fit and healthy are two different things as well. Again going back to the study if you're over weight but fit it still means you're probably not healthy.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Actually if you look at what the study says it's perfectly possible for sumo wrestlers to be fit and still have a life expectancy lower than average. They probably are fit in their own way, their leg muscles are probably huge for example, but all the excess fat they are carrying will be severely detrimental to their health late in life.

Fit and healthy are two different things as well. Again going back to the study if you're over weight but fit it still means you're probably not healthy.

their leg muscles may be huge but that is due to all the weight they are carrying. you too could have huge leg muscles by doing some weight training which is the same thing apart from you lift weights rather than your own body which is overweight.

a lot of them have knee issues. so that kind of goes against the whole point again. no point having huge leg muscles at the expense of your knees, other joints and ill health. also having huge leg muscles isn't a sign of fitness either. a sign of fitness is low resting heart rate and recovery from cardio.

e.g. ask a group of 10 people to run at 12 km/h for 5 minutes then measure who gets their heart rate below 80 the fastest. doesn't need to be running could be swimming, rowing, skipping, etc so long as it's at a decent steady pace for a decent amount of time.

again this is different from showing strength. where you would require someone to do the standard weightlifting lifts. e.g. deadlift, bench press, overhead press, etc and who can lift the most is the strongest.

 

[Amp34]

You could run a marathon with terminal cancer. You're fit but it doesn't mean you're healthy.

The lifestyle and weight of sumo wrestlers is certainly not healthy, but many of them are probably pretty fit in their own way, or else the heaviest would always win.

 

[Greebo]

You must be very small. Are you a chimney sweep by trade?

I've a 32" waist and am BMI ~22.5, which is about in the middle. And A lot of people seem to think I'm skinny (I'm not - they're just all fat)

5 foot 9 and the middle of the BMI ideal weight makes me look like a rake. For my height I am meant to weigh 10 stone for the middle of the "optimal" scale. Even at 8.5 stone I would still be "optimal". . Even when I am at the top of that middle band and weigh 11.5 stone I still have a 29" waste.

I "look" the most natural and healthy when I weigh around 13 stone but that puts me firmly in the overweight and borderline obese. So i gave up looking at BMI charts as thought they were useless.

 

[StriderX]

Hopefully the lead researcher is a fat female with colourful hair, at least then "certain people" cant attack the person leading it.

But no doubt its an old white man, and they'll completely ignore it.

 

[Tefal]

Article is wrong.
https://twitter.com/DeniseBayliss/status/864768874788605952

Wiggins is now fat but would still demolish 99% of people in this country on a bike. Fit fatty.

the study doesnty say he cant ride a brike the studyt says his heart or the blood vessals in hisb rain have a much increased risk of failing suddenly and killing him.

 

[Tefal]

I cant see any decent doctor quoting bmi as its a ******** measurement. As stated above anyone with muscle gets classed as obese (rugby players for example). Its a joke of a measurement.

and you are correct no one would use bmi to refer to an individual, however over 3.5 MILLION people it works fairly well as an indicator there are not enough soldiers and rugby players and bodybuilders in the uk to swing that 3.5 million by a margin of 50%

 

[Psycho Sonny]

You could run a marathon with terminal cancer. You're fit but it doesn't mean you're healthy.

The lifestyle and weight of sumo wrestlers is certainly not healthy, but many of them are probably pretty fit in their own way, or else the heaviest would always win.

which is why i said there are exceptions.

also marathons tend to do more damage than good. it's too long a distance and on hard surfaces. also a lot of people use incorrect shoes, etc.

sumo's didn't tend to be this big it's a modern thing. before they used to be chunky but respectable. now they are all trying to gain an advantage by being heavier than their opponent.

i don't see how anyone that is say bigger than say a 38" waist could be classified as fit. sumo's are likely to be what 50"+ waists?

 

[Vanquish-Storm]

The thread title is misleading, the article talks about obese people being more likely to have heart disease. Which is why it 'fit', it's not out about cardio vascular endurance and being fat.

Well I suppose that could be more possible then. Athletes can suffer from heart problems as we have seen all to much recently.

 

[Tefal]

That fact that doing a study and basing it on people with a BMI over 30 is flawed if you then are saying you cant be fat and fit.

But there is a very good chance that people who have low fat and still have a BMI over 30 still die younger anyway. shrugs.

really 3.5 million people will all be skewed?

The scientists examined electronic health records from 1995 to 2015 in the Health Improvement Network – a large UK general practice database. They found records for 3.5 million people who were free of coronary heart disease at the starting point of the study and divided them into groups according to their BMI and whether they had diabetes, high blood pressure [hypertension], and abnormal blood fats [hyperlipidemia], which are all classed as metabolic abnormalities. Anyone who had none of those was classed as “metabolically healthy obese”.

The study found that those obese individuals who appeared healthy in fact had a 50% higher risk of coronary heart disease than people who were of normal weight. They had a 7% increased risk of cerebrovascular disease – problems affecting the blood supply to the brain – which can cause a stroke, and double the risk of heart failure.

Dr Rishi Caleyachetty, who led the study, said it was true that weightlifters could be healthy and yet have a BMI that suggested they were obese. “I understand that argument. BMI is crude … but it is the only measure we have in the clinic to get a proxy for body fat. It is not realistic [to use anything else] in a GP setting or in the normal hospital clinic. We have to rely on BMI measurements, however crude they may be,” he said.

While BMI results for particular individuals could be misleading, the study showed that on a population level, the idea that large numbers of people can be obese and yet metabolically healthy and at no risk of heart disease was wrong.

 

[Tefal]

They still need to be very fit, think about the size of the opponent you have to move, beside your own weight. I'll turn it around, put a footballer in the ring with a Sumo wrestler, footballer wouldnt last 30 seconds.



https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=118514671

That was a quick google, i am no expert but would like to know how this topic fits with Sumo's.

they're definitly not "fit" in the medical sense then.

that regime if not made up PR BS would put huge strain on your body.


as evidence by the fact thier average life expectancy is only in the early 60's

 

[Tefal]

Actually if you look at what the study says it's perfectly possible for sumo wrestlers to be fit and still have a life expectancy lower than average. They probably are fit in their own way, their leg muscles are probably huge for example, but all the excess fat they are carrying will be severely detrimental to their health late in life.

Fit and healthy are two different things as well. Again going back to the study if you're over weight but fit it still means you're probably not healthy.

err the study was focused on people dying young, not their ability to run. to them fit = not got heart disiease

which they couldn't test anyway as its an analysis of medical records.

 

[Greebo]

really 3.5 million people will all be skewed?

Yeah the result is correct. If you have high BMI then you have more risk of heart disease but that doesnt mean to say they are all fat. I am pretty sure that fit, healthly athletes all have much higher risk of heart disease and they will be over over the BMI ideal as well.

The point I am trying to make (and badly) is that its not just been "fat and fit" at risk but anybody over the BMI index so all those people on here in the gym thread on here best stop going as much I suppose?

 

[Tefal]

Well how do you know? The results show that having high BMI even though you are fit increases your odds of dying. Hence why I said the study is flawed as they could only go on BMI index.

because that's really not how statistics work.

the number of people with a high bm,i but low body fat is very low in our population.

and as the study even states BMI is not for indivuiduals but for groups and trends.

So the study tells us high bmi = greater risk of XYZ over the years.

its then up to the individuals to asses thier own health.


you can't just take a tiny outlier and say it should apply to all.

but yeah im sure random dude on the internet is better positioned to declare the validity of a medical metadata study based on an article in the gaurdian than the peer review process of the journal it was published in.

 

[Greebo]

because that's really not how statistics work.

the number of people with a high bm,i but low body fat is very low in our population.

and as the study even states BMI is not for indivuiduals but for groups and trends.

So the study tells us high bmi = greater risk of XYZ over the years.

its then up to the individuals to asses thier own health.


you can't just take a tiny outlier and say it should apply to all.

but yeah im sure random dude on the internet is better positioned to declare the validity of a medical metadata study based on an article in the gaurdian than the peer review process of the journal it was published in.

Chill. I was just passing comment that stating fit plus high BMI doesnt mean that applies to everybody. Or perhaps it does but this study doesnt and cant show that.