No wonder CompSci grads are unemployed ?

dowie said:
Someone with a good grasp of C++ can pick up Java fairly easily.

The same can't necessarily be said when it comes to someone with a good grasp of Java picking up C++.

Incidentally the person who wrote that article probably knows more about C++ than anyone on these forums. I very much doubt that he is the one missing the point.

Java is fairly easy to learn and is ubiquitous whereas the best paid field for programmers to work in requires C++. Some of the best paid jobs within that field can be sourced via the author of that article.
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I agree, my point is knowing Java doesn’t make you a good or bad programmer. Maybe he shouldn't be quite so judgmental.

My personal feeling is Java is a good language but I don't particularly like using it due to it’s none native nature.
 
The bit where he talks about writing essays is totally true.

Now I'm doing Computing at A-Level and plan to do Computer Science at degree level.

For our coursework, we have to make a program for an end user, fair enough.

Here are the catches:
- HAS to be done in VB6.0
- You get 0 marks for your code
- All the marks get done in a microsoft word document which includes transcripts of interviews with the end user and other crap

It's like the kid who sits next to me in class, is a programming guru, he can make anything and everything in almost all languages under the sun. He has blazed through his project and his code is immaculate. However, like me, he absolutely hates all the written work, and we know that he could easily get a job as a programmer and earn loads of money, but he won't get an A in computing A-Level.

I even asked my teacher who before being a teacher owned his own software company and is a programming guru too,
I said to him
"So basically if you're good at business and you can't program anything you get an A, and if you can program everything and can't do business you get a D"

His reply was
"Pretty much, yes"

Complete poop, I hope Computer Science at degree level will prepare me for the real world otherwise it's going to be 4 years of my life wasted.


/rant
 
Mason- said:
Complete poop, I hope Computer Science at degree level will prepare me for the real world otherwise it's going to be 4 years of my life wasted.
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It depends on what you want to do in the real world. Even with most programming jobs there is still a fair amount of documentation required in most businesses.
 
Ive got no problems with thick people doing Computer Science, it justs makes me stand out more for being awesome.

Also, this moron talks solely about programming - i hate to break it to him but there are pretty much a billion other elements too that you can make a quick buck on if you so desire (dare i say it outloud.. sharepoint *shudder).

The more people coming over from Hyderabad, the more tards taking "Multimedia Technologies" or "internet Computing", the more i'll get paid when the baby boomers retire and theres a dearth of skills.
 
A couple of things:

1) Anyone thinking Java isn't a 'comp-sci' language, or isn't used much in the 'real' world, is very much deluded.

2) A good 'programmer' is language agnostic.

Oh... and

3) It's El Reg. They're about as genuinely technical as The Gadget Show.
 
dowie said:
Someone with a good grasp of C++ can pick up Java fairly easily.

The same can't necessarily be said when it comes to someone with a good grasp of Java picking up C++.

Incidentally the person who wrote that article probably knows more about C++ than anyone on these forums. I very much doubt that he is the one missing the point.

Java is fairly easy to learn and is ubiquitous whereas the best paid field for programmers to work in requires C++. Some of the best paid jobs within that field can be sourced via the author of that article.
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Learning both languages is easy. The hard part, as previously mentioned, is learning how to use them well, and how to design and develop stable and maintainable solutions efficiently.
 
Mason- said:
it's going to be 4 years of my life wasted.


/rant
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Nowadays in my experience you want developers to actually also have the capability to perform systems analysis, rather than just code monkeys. You want them to use available libraries, program modularly, and potentially perform hand over to testers or even users. They also should be able to reverse engineer code and bug find in other people's code.

Developers are expected to make decent database calls, schema decisions (do we need a new index? Do we need to update stats? Do we need a new table? Why? How much will that slow down the rest of the system? How normalised should the new table be? Should we use ftp or rcp?), and choose the appropriate language for the job. They will probably not get told all of the above in the spec. The spec may be open to misinterpretation and after informing the BA they are told 'make your best guess at what I meant because I ain't got time to fix it' ! In this situation they are expected to understand the business process enough to make a decent call! Not be a 'code money' who throws his rattle out of the pram because he's not being told EXACTLY what to program!

They are also most certainly expected to be able to handle documentation .. they will bear minimum be documenting than performing component testing, and peer review of other people's work (formal .. not just 'yea Gary it looks cool'). They will also probably be involved in updating supporting docs (data dicts, SSADM diagrams, flow charts showing technical data flows). They will be expected to formally document reasoning behind requests for new tools (compilers, etc)

If a business analyst forwards a spec that will in reality slow down the whole enterprise database, or exclusively lock some table, the developer is supposed to realise this and raise appropriate warning flags, run meetings to discuss alternatives, think of alternatives, and potentially alter the spec with the stake-holder's blessing after describing the problem and the way forward clearly in a non-tech way.


In my experience the days of pure 'code monkeys' are gone.
 
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I'm an employed Computer Science graduate. However i did moly degree back when they taught the subject properly. I did assembly, C++ and OO theory as well as non programming modules that required maths!

Database theory was the dullest thing I've ever done...

I agree that a lot of the hard science / maths related deferred are being dumbed down. Just like A Levels. Make them hard then only the top % get to Uni and then only the top % of those get a first. Sorts the trully gifted from chaff.

I'm now starting a Psychology degree as I've had enough of working with computers. Fixing people is more rewarding...however I am curious how a softer science based degree will be.
 
vonhelmet said:
I only said it isn't used as much as C/C++...
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I think it isn't used very much in the real world of business as oppose to C++ and (nowadays) .net

I've been at over 50 client sites over my 20 years in the business, big old clients - I can think of 1 that used java for anything*. I can't think of 1 that didn't use C++. I also can't think of one that didn't use SQL come to think of it .. I'd say SQl is joint wiht C++ as the most essential to know as a developer -- waaaay more wanted than java.

.net is flavour of the year .. just like SAP was .. I doubt anyone's gonna make a career in it - rather 8 years good work then 'OMG I better learn '.net + ' !!


* I have however always been in the dead-middle of enterprise level solutions .. maybe they used it for light-weight front-end stuff somewhere within the enterprise, but not that I saw ..
 
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Dominic is a very well known headhunter for quants who work in investment banking or finance in general. He is well aligned to the market so he has a good grip on what the employers are looking for and what the standards are. As far as I know he is also teaching some kind of quantitative finance lectures/seminars so he knows his stuff too.

I guess he is coming from a viewpoint of "I know how hard the market is for the people who want to score high and I know that the current qualifications are simply not good enough", so he is right in that respect. Whatever you think about your course he is one of the people you should be listening to if you want to have a chance at getting a job that pays $$$$$$$$$$. Defending your course is not going to make you more appealing to a potential employer, just happy about your choice.
 
looking through all of this I'm kind of worried now :/
I have chosen to study Computer Games Programming in Uni, its a 4 year course with a year of working in the 3rd year then the final year completes the degree.
The syllabus says that it teaches Java, C and C++ as well as some mathematics which will then help cover advanced physics.

To anyone out there that is a programmer or indeed did a programming course in uni, does this sound like it should be a course where I can come out and get a job straight away? Or have any of you learnt from past experiences?
any help would be lovely :) cheers
 
I have done java, but not C or C# but i am not doing a computer science course. My lecturer in my first year said that a good programmer can pick up any language easily, as the concepts in them are the same.

Not sure how true this is as I dont really do much in depth programming on my course, this year we are developing an android app which is still java.

I am not going into programming though so hopefully this shouldnt be a draw back.
 
remtard said:
looking through all of this I'm kind of worried now :/
I have chosen to study Computer Games Programming in Uni, its a 4 year course with a year of working in the 3rd year then the final year completes the degree.
The syllabus says that it teaches Java, C and C++ as well as some mathematics which will then help cover advanced physics.

To anyone out there that is a programmer or indeed did a programming course in uni, does this sound like it should be a course where I can come out and get a job straight away? Or have any of you learnt from past experiences?
any help would be lovely :) cheers
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If I read a CV saying 'Computer Games programming' and I was recruiting for someone to program on my multi-national companies' enterprise-wide system that bills for millions of pounds a month and can not fail, I would form the conclusion 'This kid wants to program space invaders, he's suited to something different from the serious programming role we have available'.

This isn't to say you won't get a job in the computer games industry of course :) Only downer to that is every kid wants to do it, so the market has driven the pay down to super-low levels :( For example computer games testing is so flooded with people that think 'BRILLIANT' it is now performed on a volunteer level for free as kids are prepared to work for free so why pay anyone :(
 
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remtard said:
looking through all of this I'm kind of worried now :/
I have chosen to study Computer Games Programming in Uni, its a 4 year course with a year of working in the 3rd year then the final year completes the degree.
The syllabus says that it teaches Java, C and C++ as well as some mathematics which will then help cover advanced physics.

To anyone out there that is a programmer or indeed did a programming course in uni, does this sound like it should be a course where I can come out and get a job straight away? Or have any of you learnt from past experiences?
any help would be lovely :) cheers
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Ok, I presume that you took comp games progr because you want to get in the games industry, right? (if Not you are doing a big mistake!).

Now, the degree will give you the bottom necessary qualifications to get in the race for a job. All this means is that it gives you a justification to apply for these jobs - it will not be a differentiating factor. Think about it, anyone who applies for the positions you are interested will 99% have some soft of university background similar to yours, right? So your university degree is just a necessity, nothing more.

Adding to that, whatever you study at uni is good to fill up blank space in CV but for any potential employer you are expected to known over and above whatever you are taught. Being passively taught shows nothing. Again, think of the competition, the ones who will be different will be the ones who have done extra stuff on their own. How do you do that? Try to find out what the market is looking for, what is hot in computer programming NOW and get some skills in it (rough guess would be something related to parallel/GPU programming, but i'm not in the business so that's just my impression). You need to get skills in a niche to ADD VALUE to your employer, otherwise you are just another CV.

Finally, the most important factor into grabbing that job straight out of Uni that supercedes skills and whatnot is: NETWORKING. If you network enough through uni you will have great opportunities at getting a job. Try to network as much as you can, check out what is available through your careers office, do internships, placements. Try to go to relevant conferences or meetings or get-togethers. Try cold-contacting people over linkedin that work in the industry and explain them your interest and try to get to meet them for 15mins to ask them a few things (or over the phone if they are not available in person). You might need to contact a lot but a few will respond, go and talk to them, ask them stuff and always-always ask how you can position yourself better for a job (be blunt about what you want, they know you want to get a job out of it, they are not stupid). After that keep regular contact with them by asking them more questions etc etc every once per month or whatever as you are approaching graduation and well before you finish ask them for job opportunities.

That's how you will get a good chance at getting a job. If you just wait to get your degree and then apply over the internet and hope something will happen your chances are slim.
 
I read that article the other day and thought it was well-written and had totally valid points (albeit age old). :confused:

I'm stunned that people are finding things to disagree with? :confused:
 
NathanE said:
I read that article the other day and thought it was well-written and had totally valid points (albeit age old). :confused:

I'm stunned that people are finding things to disagree with? :confused:
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Because it makes them feel bad about themselves, their choices and their future employability??

People don't realise that universities are businesses and they will tell you anything you want to hear to get your custom/money. Whether you get a degree that has no market value is something they don't really care most of the times (depends on the uni but generally valid).
 
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