Non-directed Altruistic Donation

What are you compensating for ??

miscarriage? someone close died ? religious?

im devils advocate here
 
Burnsy2023 said:
I'll base this decision on the evidence and stats I can get during the assessment and consultation stage.

I need to look into the actual stats of complications but this is one of the reasons I think I'd prefer a non-directed donation, I'd prefer not to know if it was unsuccessful.
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That's all I am saying is to examine this properly but yourself. It is a 'safe' procedure or it wouldn't be allowed to continue. We don't really know the proper complication rate - all the studies are quite faulty for a variety of reasons most of which they can't control. Figures may be given to you - the often quoted 1:3000 0.3% mortality rate - people will mention that in some studies long-term survival is show to be better in donors - some studies will show a lot worse. You will most likely be younger than most donors though, healthier all around and importantly not obese. This all works in your favour and for that of the recipient.

I am presuming you are quite educated and would rightly be sceptical of a piece of scientific research that is done on the behest of an interested party. Therefore, it matters not what I say or the people who will treat you fairly but are not impartial at the meetings. Look up the figures yourself they are out there:

Is the study done in one centre - could a good or bad surgeon be changing the results?
Is the technique used in the study the same as the one they use at Southampton?
How long ago was the study?
Who will be performing your actual procedure - the consultant, the reg or will they talking a junior through the process?
What is there mortality rate?
What is their major complication rate?
What is their minor complication rate?
Do the minor complications actually to you seem more than that - what medically may be defined as minor may be to you not that way eg incontinence etc.
How long were the donors tracked for?
Was there a good control group?
What will the success rates be for the recipient - again these figures are out there but generally they are excellent?

I am just saying you need to figure this out yourself and whilst trusting the people you are meeting recognising they were all trained by the same people for the same purpose. Look at the studies were they done by people who seem junior, were they done in a reputable centre etc. See how that relates to the whole then ask Southampton how they compare.

Like I said it is a safe procedure but all safe procedures carry risks. You are taking a preventable risk for a very noble reason. If you go ahead then go ahead fully informed because that is the only true consent. You can't really trust anyone else to do that for you on something this big.

For what it's worth I'll offer my perspective from a different angle:

Would I donate to my wife - yes because I love her.
Would I donate to my kids - yes because they are my world.
Would I donate to a friend or family member - yes because I know it's likely safe and because I care for these people.
Would I donate to a stranger - no because there is some risk that a) one of the above may need my help b) I would be unlucky and it would cause distress for those I've just mentioned.

Whatever you chose I think your a very noble person for even considering it. All I will say now is I have a few medals on my wall for doing things where I reacted rather than thought things through - my kids think they are 'epic' - however now after thinking about those times I just think how things may have turned out and how recklessly irresponsible I was at those moments.

Burnsy2023 said:
I suppose this is the difference between people that donate to an aid campaign like Ebola and those who take the risk to go out to these countries with MSF.
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Both my wife and I have been out there - see above last paragraph. And then look at Mr Pooley - see how much training he did post qualification what his experience he was then calculate how many people he placed at risk at the Royal Free and how much his illness cost the NHS. Doing good isn't always enough Burnsy I've mentioned this time and time again on these forums in relation to interactions especially medical one has to weigh the good with the potential for harm. A lot of this comes with hindsight unfortunately.
 
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Efour said:
What are you compensating for ??

miscarriage? someone close died ? religious?

im devils advocate here
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Do I have to be compensating for anything? I already spend a lot of time helping others for no reward.

Xordium said:
That's all I am saying is to examine this properly but yourself.
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Again, thanks for your input, it is appreciated. I think I need to spend a weekend in my old uni library reading some papers. Do you have any other suggested material that I should look at as part of the research?
 
I would not do this because of the chance that someone in my family might need them. Yes there is the argument that if you think along the extremes of these lines, you would never do anything, but I think that organ transplantation is a pretty low chance anyway.

If my wife or children (should we have any) encounter issues later in life I'd give up a kidney in a heart beat.
 
Burnsy2023 said:
Do you have any other suggested material that I should look at as part of the research?
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Southampton will have their actual figures. But read the renal/kidney journals no further back than 3 years - it will help you get a feel of what to ask Southampton. Words you may need include renal rather than kidney, nephrectomy = removal of kidney, laproscopic = keyhole surgery. The to give it another slant read say teh discussion in the Medical Ethics Journals - they will offer a very different and more impartial view.

Have a look at this for a start (I've skimmed it and it seems pretty good it seems honest all around not sugar-coating or ignoring things): http://www.bjrm.co.uk/ShowPDF.aspx?index=0&st=13&nd=16&edit=260&aid=1713
 
Just an aside before you go too far - can you take 2-3 months possible more off work and are they okay with that? And do you have someone to help you with your shopping etc for the first 6 weeks at least etc?
 
Efour said:
I think this is one of the most insane things to ever consider.
This is a whole other level of risk and future consequences.
Good luck if you do it but it doesn't win you my respect.
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Only this.

Have to ask, is something missing in your life so much that giving away part of yourself is the only way to fill the void? I can understand if your dad/brother/wife needed one and you can help, but to do it for a stranger without even knowing the outcome - it sounds sheer lunacy to me.

Put yourself down as an organ donor and the same net result isn't it?

Edit - Efour already followed up, apologies
 
I don't think I'd even give up a kidney for siblings or parents.

My responsibility lies, first and foremost, with my wife/children, and part of that responsibility entails not risking my own health in unnecessary ways.

There are other worthy things you can do - fundraising, hospital visits, etc. If you must give up body parts, then blood donation, or get on the bone marrow register.
 
You do have to weigh everything up before making this decision - you are potentially about to give somebody the most amazing gift they will ever receive.
I went through kidney failure a good few years ago and spent two years on dialysis while I attempted to lose weight and get fit enough to be placed on the transplant list - that took about a year.
My wife decided that she would donate one of her kidneys to me and went through a work-up. We were found to be a "good match" and just over 3 years ago the transplant went ahead.
It made a stunning change to my life - aa handful of drugs twice a day and quarterly hospital vists compared to drugs and 3 visits to the hospital a week for 4hrs at a time.

My wife didn't think twice, but she was my wife at the end of the day. If we hadn't been a match we would have gone through the "matched couples" system where a match for me would be found elsewhere and my wife's kidney would go to someone else.

Giving a kidney to a total strange - amazing. But as a transplant patient and a massive advocate that the donation system should be opt-out rather than opt-in I've still got to say make sure you know what you're doing.
You won't be allowed to donate until you've been through counselling, so make sure you do that part properly.
 
I'd be happy to give my organs when I die.
I'd be happy to give a kidney if I were compatible with a friend/relative.
I wouldn't be happy giving up a kidney for the sake of it. I know that sounds selfish, but it's such a massive thing to do to your body that I don't think I could cope with it.

It's a big decision to make and it is laudable but also something you need to consider very carefully. It could well change your life completely, and not just by how you feel but the impact losing an organ can have.
 
Xordium said:
Just an aside before you go too far - can you take 2-3 months possible more off work and are they okay with that? And do you have someone to help you with your shopping etc for the first 6 weeks at least etc?
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I'm civil service so I think it'll be fine but I'm going to bring this up with my manager in the near future to get the discussions going.

This isn't going to happen overnight and I'll have plenty of time to change my mind if I wish. The paper you linked to details many of the checks that are necessary to proceed which in itself may rule me ineligible. I suppose a byproduct is getting a full health MOT which could be useful. I imagine these checks will go on for best part of a year.

I'm in the process of changing my lifestyle a bit and losing some weight, around 10-12kg in the next 4-6 months. I imagine getting to a heather weight will help with any health checks but at least I'm not obese.
 
Not sure I see the rational giving up organs now, except perhaps in the case of a partner, child or sibling etc need one, when you need/may need them, when you can donate everything than say within the next 50-60 years later when you die.

It's still going to someone who needs them as much then as it would now.
 
Dunks said:
Not sure I see the rational giving up organs now, except perhaps in the case of a partner, child or sibling etc need one, when you need/may need them, when you can donate everything than say within the next 50-60 years later when you die.

It's still going to someone who needs them as much then as it would now.
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We'll probably be able to grow transplant organs in 50-60 years, but people need organs now and don't have that luxury of time.

People think I'm mad for spending so much time in the Police too but at the end of the day I enjoy giving to others.
 
Problem is however, organ requirement isn't "fashionable".
Cancer is of course a terrible, terrible thing and peoplare affected by it - most of us will have a friend/relative who is struck down by it.
My mother recently had a lung scare, thankfully surgery appears to have solved the issue.
The investments go to cancer and the other "big" researches - organ development alas not so much.
Company in the US is working on a wearable kidney, so instead of people having to go to a hospital for dialysis 3 times a week they can wear an artifical kidney all the time instead - but it's slow development as the donations are just not there.
 
A little unrelated, but in my opinion altruism doesn't exist.

Even if there's no tangible reward, there is still a motive for doing good for others, whether that is to make yourself feel better, or to make yourself look better to your peers.
 
Alienfish360 said:
A little unrelated, but in my opinion altruism doesn't exist.

Even if there's no tangible reward, there is still a motive for doing good for others, whether that is to make yourself feel better, or to make yourself look better to your peers.
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That's still altruism, it has a specific name but alas I can't recall it.
 
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