Official Receiver advice.

[Haggisman]

Can you clarify if you received the money (gift or otherwise)?

If you didn't then this is simple - responding telling them you didn't receive it, there is nothing they can do unless there is proof that you did.

If you did receive the money then it might be time to engage a solicitor to see where you stand

 

[LeoK]

My worry is the OP has received money. They took a salary. My guess is the auditors (et al) are following bank payments. There is possible incomplete information on the employers side.

If the employer didn’t document it clearly, I’d be concerned they didn’t pay the employers share of NI,. Etc. A possible explanation is they are claiming payments were a gift to avoid additional liabilities; paying the NI

 

[Slam62]

My worry is the OP has received money. They took a salary. My guess is the auditors (et al) are following bank payments. There is possible incomplete information on the employers side.

If the employer didn’t document it clearly, I’d be concerned they didn’t pay the employers share of NI,. Etc. A possible explanation is they are claiming payments were a gift to avoid additional liabilities; paying the NI

Yeah that's a possibility, so ask the OR to clarify the dates and amounts of the payments and compare with payslips and what you received. The government always get first dibs on the money so it's likely to be tax related.

 

[Pudney]

Like others have said, it very suspect.

If I were reading between the lines, they are probably just fishing. My guess is they are hoping you will self implicate yourself. Then they can try to claim the value from you.

This won't be a "fishing" expedition in the normal sense. The OR will have information either from the previous directors or from company records that a payment has been made to the OP and the explanation is either unknown or suggests the payment was improper. The OR has a legal duty to investigate this.

Do not ignore this either, the OR does have powers to examine persons in court if they deem it necessary. It's not normally needed as they rely on voluntary co-operation (or it may not be prudent from a cost point of view for small sums).

Yeah that's a possibility, so ask the OR to clarify the dates and amounts of the payments and compare with payslips and what you received. The government always get first dibs on the money so it's likely to be tax related.

The government does not always get first dibs. They are a preferred creditor for taxes withheld at source (e.g. VAT or PAYE) but in other areas they rank equally to other unsecured creditors.

I don't actually remember what the exact priority order is but I think it's vaguely:

• Creditors with fixed charge security.
  
• Liquidator fees.
• Preferred creditors (e.g. employee unpaid wages or stat redundancy, HMRC VAT/PAYE)
• Creditors with floating charges.
• Everyone else (e.g. employees non-stat redundancy, HMRC CT, general business creditors).
• Shareholders

Do NOT rely on that list, it's been over a decade since I learned it and I've forgotten it now.

 

[LeoK]

This won't be a "fishing" expedition in the normal sense. The OR will have information either from the previous directors or from company records that a payment has been made to the OP and the explanation is either unknown or suggests the payment was improper. The OR has a legal duty to investigate this.

Do not ignore this either, the OR does have powers to examine persons in court if they deem it necessary. It's not normally needed as they rely on voluntary co-operation (or it may not be prudent from a cost point of view for small sums).

That makes sense. Sorry if I gave that impression. Thank you for correcting / improving what was written

 

[ethan]

My worry is the OP has received money. They took a salary. My guess is the auditors (et al) are following bank payments. There is possible incomplete information on the employers side.

If the employer didn’t document it clearly, I’d be concerned they didn’t pay the employers share of NI,. Etc. A possible explanation is they are claiming payments were a gift to avoid additional liabilities; paying the NI

I didn't receive the money. I was forced onto the sick at the time for six months because I was told they could no longer afford to pay me.

Chances are they have perused the bank account and found a withdrawal for which the director was unable to explain and has decided to say was given it to me to avoid having to pay the said amount to a creditor.

I'm a relative so there wouldn't be a need to explain anything like tax and national insurance. Which is basically what you are referring to.

The OR says the director claims the said amount of money was given to me. Not that they have definitive proof.

I haven't entertained the idea that this is only loosely related to the business insofar it could be related to a personal loan on the part of the said individual using the money to shore up their business.

This might explain why I didn't recognise the surname being used by the debtor. The surname could likely be a maiden name. Both directors at the time were trying to get loans to pay their workforce from anybody.

 

[Slam62]

This won't be a "fishing" expedition in the normal sense. The OR will have information either from the previous directors or from company records that a payment has been made to the OP and the explanation is either unknown or suggests the payment was improper. The OR has a legal duty to investigate this.

Do not ignore this either, the OR does have powers to examine persons in court if they deem it necessary. It's not normally needed as they rely on voluntary co-operation (or it may not be prudent from a cost point of view for small sums).



The government does not always get first dibs. They are a preferred creditor for taxes withheld at source (e.g. VAT or PAYE) but in other areas they rank equally to other unsecured creditors.

I don't actually remember what the exact priority order is but I think it's vaguely:

• Creditors with fixed charge security.
  
• Liquidator fees.
• Preferred creditors (e.g. employee unpaid wages or stat redundancy, HMRC VAT/PAYE)
• Creditors with floating charges.
• Everyone else (e.g. employees non-stat redundancy, HMRC CT, general business creditors).
• Shareholders

Do NOT rely on that list, it's been over a decade since I learned it and I've forgotten it now.

Pretty sure hmrc do have first dibs, but doesn't seem to matter in this case.

 

[dowie]

It's a complete nonsense for the director to suggest I was given money because it's not true. What is worrying me is how I can prove it? Looking at the letter from the Receiver I would have thought it would have been prudent to have gathered the evidence for the claim from the director - and in the circumstances not taken their word for it?

If you've NOT received any money/gifts from them then why would you have to prove it? I mean why not just tell them you've not received any gifts from this director? Ask them for some clarity/details re: what they're referring to, when was this supposed gift transferred?

Ultimately not your problem! I'm not sure why people are suggesting you speak to a lawyer regarding this, that could start costing you hundreds of pounds all because of something that has nothing to do with you/doesn't affect you.

The lost wages are another matter, were you compensated for them or is that still ongoing? Were you paid via PAYE? You have payslips with tax and NI etc.. accounting for all your wage payments up until the ones you're owed because of the insolvency.

 

[Pudney]

Pretty sure hmrc do have first dibs, but doesn't seem to matter in this case.

You're mistaken, most likely because HMRC did become a preferred creditor a couple of years ago (and it was reported in the news as such), but the devil is in the detail and it only applies to some debts.

 

[Pudney]

If you've NOT received any money/gifts from them then why would you have to prove it? I mean why not just tell them you've not received any gifts from this director? Ask them for some clarity/details re: what they're referring to, when was this supposed gift transferred?

Ultimately not your problem! I'm not sure why people are suggesting you speak to a lawyer regarding this, that could start costing you hundreds of pounds all because of something that has nothing to do with you/doesn't affect you.

The lost wages are another matter, were you compensated for them or is that still ongoing? Were you paid via PAYE? You have payslips with tax and NI etc.. accounting for all your wage payments up until the ones you're owed because of the insolvency.

Although sort of good advice it also is sort of bad advice in the sense it probably will be OP's problem until they've given sufficient explanation/evidence to contradict the information given to the OR. Bear in mind lying to an OR is a criminal offence and the director should have been aware of that at the time, and given the relationship between the bankruptee and the OP it's entirely possible the OR could think the OP is lying or colluding with the director. Or they may believe him, I don't know which way the wind will blow on this!

Edit: when I say lying to an OR is a criminal offence I obviously mean during interviews about the bankrupts financial affairs and not in general day to day conversations. I have no idea why I feel like I need to clarify this

 

[dowie]

Although sort of good advice it also is sort of bad advice in the sense it probably will be OP's problem until they've given sufficient explanation/evidence to contradict the information given to the OR. Bear in mind lying to an OR is a criminal offence and the director should have been aware of that at the time, and given the relationship between the bankruptee and the OP it's entirely possible the OR could think the OP is lying or colluding with the director. Or they may believe him, I don't know which way the wind will blow on this!

How is that the OP's problem? If he's NOT received any money and he tells them that then them merely thinking he's lying is going to result in what exactly?

Do you think he needs to spend hundreds of pounds on a lawyer because someone has made a false claim that he's been gifted money despite it not actually happening therefore no record of the transfer etc..?

 

[ethan]

If you've NOT received any money/gifts from them then why would you have to prove it? I mean why not just tell them you've not received any gifts from this director? Ask them for some clarity/details re: what they're referring to, when was this supposed gift transferred?

Ultimately not your problem! I'm not sure why people are suggesting you speak to a lawyer regarding this, that could start costing you hundreds of pounds all because of something that has nothing to do with you/doesn't affect you.

The lost wages are another matter, were you compensated for them or is that still ongoing? Were you paid via PAYE? You have payslips with tax and NI etc.. accounting for all your wage payments up until the ones you're owed because of the insolvency.

(1) I was wondering whether this was simply going to boil down to one word against the other. The director was claiming I received the money in 2018. I remember it clearly because this was the time I was told I would have to go because it was claimed the business couldn't afford to keep me despite it being a requirement to keep me (to continue to operate).

(2) You're right about the lawyer

(3) Yeah I have the payslips to prove what and when I was paid up to etc.

 

[Pudney]

How is that the OP's problem? If he's NOT received any money and he tells them that then them merely thinking he's lying is going to result in what exactly?

Do you think he needs to spend hundreds of pounds on a lawyer because someone has made a false claim that he's been gifted money despite it not actually happening therefore no record of the transfer etc..?

My assumption is that the OP values their time and likes to live a hassle free life. Therefore if the OR wants more than a mere explanation it requires more time and effort. Hence it is a problem for the OP, despite nothing being untoward at face value.

I don't think I've ever recommended a lawyer in this thread.

 

[Hades]

I was to ill to transfer. I have a permanent and untreatable neurological condition that makes life difficult .

Well for a start that sounds like disability discrimination.

Legal advice is sensible. You can probably get free advice at Citizens Advice, they maybe able to put you in touch with a pro bono lawyer. LBC radio also does a free phone in legal hour each week. You’d probably need to get the story boiled down but they might be able to give a good sense of opinions

This.

 

[dowie]

My assumption is that the OP values their time and likes to live a hassle free life. Therefore if the OR wants more than a mere explanation it requires more time and effort. Hence it is a problem for the OP, despite nothing being untoward at face value.

I don't think I've ever recommended a lawyer in this thread.

Ah ok, yes that's a problem but not the one I was referring to, I think your bad advice comment is referring to a different spin on that comment. I've not recommended that he ignores the OR or that he lies to them. He should be prepared to cooperate, ask for the specifics re: the claim etc..

The point was that he's worried about proving a negative (that's not his problem, it might not necessarily be possible even if the director claims he gave him cash say). While he can ask for details, offer to assist with info he has (he's got payslips and bank statements presumably) it's ultimately not his problem. (That's assuming he's NOT received any gifts as he says)

My main issue though is that this is someone with a disability who can't work, has lost some wages, and various people are then advising he goes out and gets a lawyer (potentially rather expensive and for something that isn't his problem). I think he should probably go to citizens' advice re: the lost wages, odd that those are still outstanding now if his employment was a few years ago(?) but this gift thing isn't something he needs to overly worry about.

 

[ivrytwr3]

"No, i havn't received any money" or tick the box on the form that says you did not receive any money.

Then forget about it and enjoy your day - i don't see the issue.

The onus is on them to prove you received any money, which they can't, because you didn't. If you are that concerned, speak to the CAB, but i certainly wouldn't be wasting money on a solicitor (at this stage).