Old covenants in deeds

Russinating

Russinating

Russinating

Soldato
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We're moving into a commercial premises that has a few covenants on the deeds. The entry is dated 21/09/1995 which is when the property was last sold, but the covenants themselves date from 01/02/1917 and were made between two dudes with exceptional names.

The covenant I'm questioning is "intoxicating liquors shall not be sold [etc]", alongside other dated ones such as "cant windows" must be erected "of pennant stone with freestone dressings and not of a less value than one hundred and forty pounds for materials and labour".

The dudes are obviously long dead, but I assume the land and their other assets are in a trust somewhere. How do you legally go about requesting changes to covenants in deeds, and if that's basically totally infeasible due to the age of them and the landowners, what's the worst that can happen if you erect windows that cost less than £140?
 
Russinating said:
We're moving into a commercial premises that has a few covenants on the deeds. The entry is dated 21/09/1995 which is when the property was last sold, but the covenants themselves date from 01/02/1917 and were made between two dudes with exceptional names.

The covenant I'm questioning is "intoxicating liquors shall not be sold [etc]", alongside other dated ones such as "cant windows" must be erected "of pennant stone with freestone dressings and not of a less value than one hundred and forty pounds for materials and labour".

The dudes are obviously long dead, but I assume the land and their other assets are in a trust somewhere. How do you legally go about requesting changes to covenants in deeds, and if that's basically totally infeasible due to the age of them and the landowners, what's the worst that can happen if you erect windows that cost less than £140?
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We were always told, Don't ask.. If you ask they'll check....Probably want a fortune to change and then double check youve not done it

Indemnity insurance was the way to go
 
Not sure you'd easily be able to change them but also clauses such as "not of a less value than one hundred and forty pounds for materials and labour" - how would that even be enforceable? Besides price changes over hundreds of years, I'm pretty sure any window would cost more than £140 if you include materials and labour.

And if not, get the fitter to issue an invoice with a labour charge that would take the bill to over £140 ;)

What's the specific wording of the specific clause that you have an issue with?

EDIT, also as above just crack on and keep shtum, especially with a covenant like that, who would be to know unless you tell someone yourself?

My house has a covenant that I can't build a slaughter house within 5 yards of the public road outside :cry:
 
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No businesses can be run from mine, unless you are a doctor, dentist or a member of a legal profession ie solicitor.(1961 covenant).
 
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No businesses can be run from mine, unless you are a doctor, dentist or a member of a legal profession ie solicitor.(1961 covenant).
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Thats an odd one, what if you are a self employed plumber or you wife has a side line in making cheap jewlery flogged on ETSY or something? I wonder just how enforceable that would be in this day and age.
 
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Hagar said:
No businesses can be run from mine, unless you are a doctor, dentist or a member of a legal profession ie solicitor.(1961 covenant).
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mattyfez said:
Thats an odd one, what if you are a self employed plumber or you wife has a side line in making cheap jewlery flogged on ETSY or something? I wonder just how enforceable that would be in this day and age.
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That's in most deeds, particularly for apartments.

I was joking about the window being the issue in our deeds, it's the sale of "intoxicating liquors".

I think the don't ask bit is probably pertinent for us. It's not essential to our use of the space, just a nice to have anyway. And the definition of liquor is even arguable; beer isn't defined as a liquor by the EU, for example.
 
A self employed plumber with a carport full of piping etc. A white van out at all hours would get complaints no doubt. His wife with a sideline in jewellery run from the spare room, who knows or cares.
 
Russinating said:
And the definition of liquor is even arguable; beer isn't defined as a liquor by the EU, for example.
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I dinno, the Cambridge dictionary deffinition is:
an alcoholic drink, esp. one that has been distilled (= heated to a gas, then cooled to a liquid)
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So I would think that includes wine and beer... however I presume you're not running a pub/nightclub, if it were something like a barber shop that gives customers a beer whilst they get thier hair cut I'm not sure anyone would ever know or care.
 
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I'm not allowed to run any business from my home. I can understand if it's to prevent me running a taxi service, lorry transport company, etc. But in the modern world a lot of businesses are desk based. If/when I want to start something I'll just get on with it and keep schtum.
 
SpellowHouse said:
A covenant means nothing unless someone complains about it. In general, even if one exists, no one will complain about it.
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Not always true. A neighbour ran into a commercial vehicle and caravans on drive covenant when the guy over the road complained. He later moved house to somewhere he could park his company van.
 
Hagar said:
A self employed plumber with a carport full of piping etc. A white van out at all hours would get complaints no doubt. His wife with a sideline in jewellery run from the spare room, who knows or cares.
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The normal "can't run a business from" Is also in a lot of mortgages. But its not meant for that. I run All my business from home. The clause is meant to stop me opening a restaurant in my back garden. Or the plumber running Plumbing workshops in his garage. Not using a room in his house as an office.
 
Yeah, I think the 'spirit' of these clauses as said, is to prevent anti-social disturbances in what is a residential area, such as noise, unsightly equipment and materials laying around, lots of traffic etc.

I guess in the case of "intoxicating liquors shall not be sold" it's so you don't get crowds of people, drunkeness/noise etc.

No one is going to know or care about a home office in a spare bedroom or garden summer house..
 
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mattyg said:
The normal "can't run a business from" Is also in a lot of mortgages. But its not meant for that. I run All my business from home. The clause is meant to stop me opening a restaurant in my back garden. Or the plumber running Plumbing workshops in his garage. Not using a room in his house as an office.
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Yes it's to preserve the amenity of a residential area by not having regular commercial vehicles or customers of a business using a domestic property. An owner having his office at home in this connected age is fine or even in a garden premise providing it still meets the amenity.
 
Russinating said:
The covenant I'm questioning is "intoxicating liquors shall not be sold [etc]", alongside other dated ones such as "cant windows" must be erected "of pennant stone with freestone dressings and not of a less value than one hundred and forty pounds for materials and labour".

The dudes are obviously long dead, but I assume the land and their other assets are in a trust somewhere. How do you legally go about requesting changes to covenants in deeds, and if that's basically totally infeasible due to the age of them and the landowners, what's the worst that can happen if you erect windows that cost less than £140?
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These sorts of covenants are basically unenforceable. Someone bringing a claim would have to prove a loss. What's the loss to a particular person if you do start selling booze? That's right, zero
 
Pipe & Slippers said:
These sorts of covenants are basically unenforceable. Someone bringing a claim would have to prove a loss. What's the loss to a particular person if you do start selling booze? That's right, zero
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Depends, if theres a bunch of rowdy people in the back garden drunk on booze you sold them.. especially if its a business rather than a family BBQ.


Neighbour disputes | MyLawyer

www.mylawyer.co.uk www.mylawyer.co.uk

Nuisance neighbours​

Everyone has the right to peace and quiet and enjoyment of their own home without excessive disturbance from others. Nuisance neighbours can disturb a person's enjoyment of their home, and inconsiderate behaviour can even be detrimental to health.

Restrictive covenants​


A Restrictive covenant is a private agreement between land owners which may restrict the way land may be used and developed. They are enforceable by one landowner against another and effectively allow a form of private planning control.
 
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Pipe & Slippers said:
While I agree, that applies to anyone, anywhere, irrespective of whether there's a covenant in place
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Yeah, agreed, I guess in the case of the OP, its a commercial premises. Say for example it was an estate agent shop -you wouldn't be able to to turn it into a pub. If you were to turn it into a hipster barber shop and offer your customers a beer, thats probably a different scenario. Whilst technically not allowed, youd have a hard time proving it was causing a nuisance.

But IANAL.

EDIT, and you could probably wriggle around it but giving a complimentary beer and increace the price of your haircuts by 3 quid, that way you are not selling intoxicating liquors.
 
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As mentioned and alluded to, alcohol sale isn't anything to do with the primary business, it's just to support events we host, refresh guests etc.
 
The OP said he was moving into "commercial premises", not a house or flat, so I assume it's somewhere he intends to run a business from, not live?

The SELLING of alcohol seems pretty clear, I would imagine it would break the covenant quite irrefutably if alcohol was served and a remuneration received solely or in part.

Quite what the result of breaking such a covenant would be I don't know, presumably it's stated somewhere?
 
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