Old Plasma TV signal setup

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I've been given a Panasonic TH-37PX600B and am having trouble setting it up. If I run the autosetup it finds channels in Ireland even though I'm on the west coast of Wales. It doesn't actually show any picture on the screen but I can see what's on via the programme guide and the audio works.

If I use a set-top box via scart, which is being used on another TV, it works fine.

Any ideas?
 
Edit: The signal condition says No DVB Service, even though it works through the set-top box via scart.

And it picks up RTE this that and the other
 
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Just because the set-top box works it doesn't mean that with a SCART connection your TV will pick up DVB-T too. You need to have a working aerial, and have that signal connected via aerial coax to the TV. This can either be a direct feed or on a coax loop-through from the STB RF Out to the TV's aerial in connection.

Before you retune you should do a reset on the TV. It could be called "First time installation" or "Factory reset" or "Shipping condition" or something else. Panasonic Web site has the TV manual so you can download it to check out the exact phrasing. The point is you need to start with a blank canvas so that any option to specify the country in with you're using the TV becomes available. Read each info screen carefully. Don't just skip through. There are important options to set. If you get them wrong then it will make the job 10 times harder.

If you skip the reset the all the TV will do is refresh the channels it already knows about, and in your case it'll be the Irish ones so you'll never get further than where you're currently stuck.

Picking up other DVB-T signals is to be expected in some areas of the UK. The main N.Wales Freeview transmitter is Moel-y-Parc, but depending on your house position and the angle of the aerial it may also be pointing at Ireland's nearest main transmitter as well. I have something similar but my main transmitter is Winter Hill, yet I can also pick up perfectly watchable signals from the Yorkshire TV main transmitter at Emley Moor. Doing the full reset should help focus the station choices to your local options.

If all else fails you can do a manual tuning.
 
Thanks for the reply

I have ran a new installation on both the television and the set-top box borrowed from another TV. When the aerial is connected to the set-top box and connected to the TV via scart, it works as expected. However when I take the aerial cable and put it straight into the TV, I get the RTE channels, with the sound, TV guide but no picture after a new installation setup
 
Other than you confirming that you are plugging in a working aerial feed to the TV then nothing else changes and my advice to you stands. Do a factory reset. Follow the onscreen information. Do the first time tuning.

Your local main transmitter is BlaenPlwyf - the Freeview muxes and their associated channel numbers can be seen here: https://ukfree.tv/transmitters/tv/BlaenPlwyf

Because of the landscape there are some areas where the main transmitter signal doesn't reach. They are filled in by a smaller transmitter called a relay. It runs a more limited service. Here's the relay info https://ukfree.tv/transmitters/tv/Aberystwyth

If you get the channels on COM4 SDN such as ITV3 and 5 USA then your location is served by the main transmitter. If not then you're possibly on the Aberystwyth Lite transmitter. Underneath where it says Frequency in the transmitter info there's a light green box with Cxx (xxx.xMHz) for each of the muxes. The C number is the channel number required for a manual tune.

 
My apologies, I missed that you've now tried a reset/first time install on the TV in your previous reply.

Do you know the history of this used Panasonic. Is it a UK set or was it originally bought for Eire?

I did an install for some folk on the Wirral a couple of weeks ago. One of their TVS was bought in Australia and brought back with them when they relocated. On auto tuning it doesn't find any UK transmissions. However, it has an option to change the tuning between 7MHz channel bands (Oz) and 8MHz (UK). Doing that meant it found UK channels but the software couldn't differentiate between Welsh and English stations. In the end it was quicker to wipe the lot and do a manual tune to Winter Hill. Maybe you'll have to do the same for the Panasonic PX.
 
I'm setting the TV up at my parent's house to the south of Blaenplwyf and from the map in the link, outside it's range
 
i think were on the Preseli transmitter and we fall into a dark green patch. We had a booster installed when Freeview was launched.
 
When Freeview launched it ran at low power alongside the existing analogue TV service so that the two wouldn't clash. The signal power for Freeview would have been a bit on the low side for folk living in marginal areas, so a level booster might have made sense. Analogue got switched off in Wales between mid 2009 and early 2010. At that point the power levels for Freeview were increased.

Some people that needed signal amplifiers prior to Digital Switch Over found that there was now too much signal post DSO. They'd get problems with pixelisation or complete loss of signal on some muxes. You see, Digital works differently to analogue. It was difficult (but not impossible) to have too much signal for analogue, and where there was too little signal the analogue picture would get progressively more snowy as the level fell. Digital isn't like that. There's a hard threshold for too little and for too much signal. The level has to be between the two thresholds or there's no picture. This is called The Digital Cliff. The analogy is like walking up to a cliff edge; everything is fine until the last step is taken and then its arrggghhhhhh!!!

It could be that your parents aerial system is a touch over-amplified now that Freeview is running at higher power levels. Freeview tuners are not all of equal sensitivity. Some brands are better than others. An over-amplified system with a TV with a less sensitive tuner could work quite happily. It's only when a TV that is better at picking up signals that the issue becomes apparent. Because of this Digital Cliff thing, it's entirely possible for some signals to be just one step too far past the upper threshold and that's enough for those muxes to be blocked.

Now put all that in context with what's happening for you. The transmissions from Ireland are going to be much weaker than your local Freeview signal. That's a pretty sensible presumption, right? Yet your Panasonic is picking them up. If I had to guess, I'd say you're picking up some or all of channels 52, 55, 56 and 59. They're the two closest Rep of Ireland transmitters by line of sight to and, for reasons too technical the get in to here, they're at frequencies where the average wideband TV aerial is most sensitive.

Of course we haven't yet ruled out this TV being an Irish set and somehow locked to the Irish version of Freeview known as Saorview.

If you know what you're doing and have the right bits of gear then I'd be tempted to by-pass the booster if at all possible and try the signal without amplification. That, or transport the TV to somewhere that doesn't have an aerial amp. You could also try a variable attenuator to reduce the signal level going in to the back of the TV. https://www.maplin.co.uk/p/variable-aerial-attenuator-a03ht
 
Thanks for the detailed response lucid. Much appreciated.

Turning the booster off turns off the signal for all three TVs in the house. Here's the setup

 
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TV1: This had a old CRT running a Phillips set-top box. I swapped it on the weekend for a cheap LCD/LED(?) with a built-in tuner.

TV2: Again this had an old CRT running a Phillips set-top box. I have tried the plasma here with and without the signal booster. With is detailed in my first post. Without it gets nothing.

TV3: Another CRT with a set-top box. Same result as TV2 when running the plasma here.
 
I'll bet you a fiver that what you're calling a Signal Booster isn't actually that at all. I'm betting it's a power supply, and it sends its power up the aerial coax lead to the amplified aerial splitter. If it was a booster then turning it off wouldn't affect the signal to TVs 1 & 3. They'd still get a signal if the loft amp was powered directly from a mains socket.

Just a thought, but you have made sure that the TV is tuning in the digital services rather than running analogue tuning?
 
I'll bet you a fiver that what you're calling a Signal Booster isn't actually that at all. I'm betting it's a power supply, and it sends its power up the aerial coax lead to the amplified aerial splitter. If it was a booster then turning it off wouldn't affect the signal to TVs 1 & 3. They'd still get a signal if the loft amp was powered directly from a mains socket.

Just a thought, but you have made sure that the TV is tuning in the digital services rather than running analogue tuning?


i have an 4 way amplified aerial splitter and with out power i get signal to tv 1 only
 
I'll bet you a fiver that what you're calling a Signal Booster isn't actually that at all. I'm betting it's a power supply, and it sends its power up the aerial coax lead to the amplified aerial splitter. If it was a booster then turning it off wouldn't affect the signal to TVs 1 & 3. They'd still get a signal if the loft amp was powered directly from a mains socket.

Just a thought, but you have made sure that the TV is tuning in the digital services rather than running analogue tuning?

I think your right. The splitter box is outside underneath the eaves.

As for the analogue tuning question, when I choose to manually tune it scans through numbers 21 - 69(?) which is the analogue frequency from what I remember. The auto tuning finds the RTE stuff with no picture. Though some of the higher channels (Sony Movie Channel, ITV3 something) work.

When I picked the TV up it was working, directly connected to the aerial via coaxial. That was about 5 miles from the Blaenplwyf transmitter.
 
Do you know the history of this used Panasonic. Is it a UK set or was it originally bought for Eire?
A good suggestion.

I had a samsung freeview tv p2270hd purchased in France that was unable to tune the UK freeview muxes, although they should have been comaptible;
I tried frimware/usb updates to the tv but they did not resolve the problem.
So I was forced to use a freeview box, this had an hdmi connection, so Picture quality was OK.
 
A good suggestion.

I had a samsung freeview tv p2270hd purchased in France that was unable to tune the UK freeview muxes, although they should have been comaptible;
I tried frimware/usb updates to the tv but they did not resolve the problem.
So I was forced to use a freeview box, this had an hdmi connection, so Picture quality was OK.

It was bought in Aberystwyth
 
It was bought in Aberystwyth

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Always reminds me of Siadwell- " Hello, I'm Dead, or I could be in Aberystwyth...quite the same thing really
 
I think your right. The splitter box is outside underneath the eaves.

As for the analogue tuning question, when I choose to manually tune it scans through numbers 21 - 69(?) which is the analogue frequency from what I remember. The auto tuning finds the RTE stuff with no picture. Though some of the higher channels (Sony Movie Channel, ITV3 something) work.

When I picked the TV up it was working, directly connected to the aerial via coaxial. That was about 5 miles from the Blaenplwyf transmitter.

Right then, you know the TV is a UK version and you've seen it working. This is all good. Barring some kind of fault developing in the journey from one house to another (unlikely but not impossible) then it's all pointing to a signal problem in the TVs new location, or possibly finger trouble in the set-up process. Let's focus on signal problems.

The TV has a Freeview tuner and an analogue tuner. Both use the same c21-c69 frequency space. When we had digital TV and analogue TV transmitting at the same time the channels had to be spaced so they wouldn't clash with each other. There's nothing broadcast on analogue any more so that's no longer an issue.

Freeview originally launched in 1998 with just standard definition services. The transmission standard for the UK's SD services is called DVB-T. The signals are encoded using MPEG2 compression. That's the tuner that the Panasonic has got; DVB-T using MPEG2 decoding.

When Freeview added HD services the MPEG2 coding process wasn't efficient enough to compress that larger data stream of HD 1080i signals in to something compact enough to make a viable Freeview HD channel selection. They used a more efficient CODEC called MPEG4. This was incorporated in a new broadcast standard for UK digital TV called DVB-T2. New TVs now work to the DVB-T2 standard. This is compatible with the old MPEG2 SD channels which are still broadcast as well as the new Freeview HD channels.

The Republic of Ireland adopted Digital TV much later than the UK, so their engineers were able to jump straight in with a system based solely on the more efficient MPEG4 CODEC. Ireland's Digital TV service is DVB-T MPGE4. It's DVB-T because for them version one of their move into Digial TV covers all their bases, SD and HD alike. They haven't had to release a "version 2" to add HD like the UK.

Pulling all this together then, there's some commonality in the UK and Irish TV systems, and that's why your Panasonic is picking up Saorview transmissions as ghosts. The TV will do the same with UK HD broadcasts. To the Panasonic, the channel space will look like there's something being broadcast at whichever c Channel numbers your local transmitter is using for HD. It'll probably report 100% strength, but 0% Quality, that's because the TV doesn't have the required MPEG4 decoder.


So where does this leave us?


My gut reaction is still the same. In the absence of other evidence I think you've got too much signal level from the local transmitter. I'm basing that on what you've said so far....

1) The TV is a UK set and you've seen it working with local transmissions

2) Where your parents live might be a marginal area for signal. When the original aerial system was installed to pick up Freeview you said you think it required a booster. This fits with the history of Freeview being on low power transmission while analogue was still broadcasting

3) Freeview reception is subject to the 'Digital Cliff'. That's where too much signal is just as bad as too little. The boundary is a very fine line

4) After analogue got switched off (DSO), most if not all Freeview transmission powers were boosted. That means any aerial system with an amplifier installed before DSO would then be kicking out a lot of signal strength after DSO, and possibly too much for those TVs with more sensitive tuners

5) The most important element for Freeview signal reception is signal Quality, not Strength. Amplifiers only boost Strength. Amplifying by too much actually reduces signal Quality. Cutting down the Strength restores some of the lost Quality

6) The TV is picking up what I suspect will be a weaker signals from RTE. If it had an MPEG4 decoder you might even be able to watch those channels

7) The other TVs and set top boxes in the house are fine, and an STB connected to the aerial feed that you later move to the Panasonic, so it's unlikely to be insufficient signal or a cable issue


Unless there's something else in the puzzle that you're unaware of or just not mentioning then too much signal level is the conclusion that fits the facts as you've given them here in the thread.

The answer is to try some signal attenuation on the end of the aerial cable before it connects to the Panasonic TV. There would be two pieces of kit I'd get hold of if I were you. The first is a fixed level attenuator. 10 or 12dB will be fine. The second item is a 0-20dB variable attenuator. The items can be used individually or combined.

Variable attenuators are useful trouble-shooting devices. Where there's too much signal and Quality is suffering as a result then it's possible to watch the TV's own Q and S meter and see Quality go up as Strength is reduced. I suspect too that using the attenuation will also get rid of the intrusion from RTE. The two items together shouldn't cost more than £10-£15 delivered, probably slightly less, so not an expensive fix by any means.
 
Thanks again for the detailed explanation. Ordered a 0-20dB variable attenuator but can't seem to make sense of the results for the fixed level attenuator.
 
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