On prem infrastructure to cloud - Career advise

Soldato
Joined
18 May 2010
Posts
22,371
Location
London
Interesting, so the servers exist in cloud, managed by the cloud provider but anyone (who pays for them) can choose an IAC tool of choice to manage them?
There must be some underlying tin in very large datacenters, that needs mananging by Microosft / Amazon / Google. Still trying to get my head around the "your infrastructure is defined as code" comment.
Version control - perfect, it's great having version control on things like our gold images. If all infrastructure can be version controlled then yes, very useful indeed.

Our company does have a data centre team who will take over the VMs and storage side of things and a networks team who I presume have build the underlying Azure network for everything. It seems I need to slot into an area that looked after some of the remote services and/or security side of things. Conditional access could be an area of thought

Yes, the servers (hypervisors) exist in massive data centres all over the world managed by the cloud provider.

You are just for example using IAC to define virtual instances, data bases etc in code.

As it's code you can treat it like any other piece of code and version control it and use CI/CD pipelines to deploy it.

It sounds like you need to catch up a bit on how the cloud works. As I said an azure course wouldn't be a bad thing. Better yet if you can get work to pay for it.

The other benefit of IAC is repeatability. You codify your infrastructure in code so that it is a repeatable process. You can run it again and again and get the exact same results.

I suppose you have to decide what you want to do. Go and work with the cloud team or go and work with the on pre team.

But in terms of future career security and progression the cloud is the way to go.

This is just the beginning.
 
Underboss
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Posts
11,350
Location
Guildford
Did the AZ900 course last year and have a freebie for the AZ104 course/exam this year, just need to motivate myself and get it done!
 
Soldato
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Posts
12,342
I feel like shifting every service in our company to cloud (which seems to be the strategy) is going to bite people in the arse big time. The annual / monthly cost will probably end up costing way more than keeping services on premises.
It will be interesting in 3 years time what pans out. Some of the services in our company require huge amounts of storage - not including mailboxes & shared mailboxes

I think the issue is that a lot of companies don't budget for long term, they get allocated a budget for the year and in most cases it's a case of spend it or lose it.

The storage arrays we design and build are moving towards the cloud - mainly because customers don't want to pay the huge hardware and support costs from day 1. Even if it ends up costing them more by year 3 or year 5.
 
Soldato
OP
Joined
6 May 2009
Posts
19,909
Yes, the servers (hypervisors) exist in massive data centres all over the world managed by the cloud provider.

You are just for example using IAC to define virtual instances, data bases etc in code.

As it's code you can treat it like any other piece of code and version control it and use CI/CD pipelines to deploy it.

It sounds like you need to catch up a bit on how the cloud works. As I said an azure course wouldn't be a bad thing. Better yet if you can get work to pay for it.

The other benefit of IAC is repeatability. You codify your infrastructure in code so that it is a repeatable process. You can run it again and again and get the exact same results.

I suppose you have to decide what you want to do. Go and work with the cloud team or go and work with the on pre team.

But in terms of future career security and progression the cloud is the way to go.

This is just the beginning.
Thanks, all useful stuff. I have been on the Azure fundamentals and Azure admin az-104 courses, work did pay - they sent everyone on them. What's the 'pre' team, as in pre cloud?
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
18 May 2010
Posts
22,371
Location
London
Thanks, all useful stuff. I have been on the Azure fundamentals and Azure admin az-104 courses, work did pay - they sent everyone on them. What's the 'pre' team, as in pre cloud?
edit - ironically my job title is a cloud engineer. This goes back 6 odd years when it was cloud computing, but private on premises cloud and a service that was called cloud around the time cloud was the new buzzword in town (with the likes of icloud) Every service started being rebranded 'cloud' something

I meant on prem.
 
Soldato
OP
Joined
6 May 2009
Posts
19,909
Progress - I now have access to CBT nuggets, Microsoft learning hub and have reader rights on our company tenant. I'm going over some fundamentals videos again as have no idea where my notes are from last year
 
Caporegime
Joined
8 Sep 2005
Posts
27,421
Location
Utopia
Similar to many other companies, we have a cloud infrastructure strategy. Microsoft Azure & Intune.

Over the next 2 to 3 years there are plans to shift all services into cloud (or just decommission unneeded sevices when there’s a cloud service to replace it)

For people like me who have been building, managing and maintaining on premise infrastructure for many years, does this spell the end? - no more on prem technicals skills required to manage servers, appliances, VMs and firewalls.

Instead back end tech is all looked after by Microsoft and everyone becomes a glorified button presser in the Azure portal console.

When every service is fully cloud hosted, what next for the teams that manage servers, VM & networks. Even technical architects, what’s there to design if all services are in public cloud?

I have worked with security teams in the past so cybersecurity may ne a good area to move into. That being said, if all services are public cloud in theory they will be updated regulaly and require no team to monitor threats.

I have taken the Azure fundementals course and Azure admin courses and have access to both consoles so have been running testing and carrying out some basic tasks

What’s everyones opinion of cloud services and there career paths?

Do AZ900 and CCSK (Certificate of Cloud Security Knowledge) to start with, as these are basic cloud certificates. AZ900 is more Azure specific of course, but CCSK is a general cloud security certificate which doesn't expire so is good to start with.
 
Soldato
OP
Joined
6 May 2009
Posts
19,909
Do AZ900 and CCSK (Certificate of Cloud Security Knowledge) to start with, as these are basic cloud certificates. AZ900 is more Azure specific of course, but CCSK is a general cloud security certificate which doesn't expire so is good to start with.
Thanks. I’ll check out the CCSK after the fundamentals.
As I’m going through more and more modules/videos and navigate around the M365 and Azure consoles things are starting to click. There’s certainly lots to learn but it’s interesting so just need to stick at it
 
Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
8,118
Location
The Land of Roundabouts
The future is cloud and tbh im welcoming it the further i go down the rabbit hole of "as a service". its very easy to deploy a VM/webapp but theirs a lot more to do it correctly and be able to manage it in a scaleable/secure/cost effective way that takes the real knowledge and i suspect a lot of places will fall fowl of it, though most things are reasonably secure by default these days there are some real gotcha's out there.
Check out udemy for the az-104 courses, you can learn a lot from working your way through those even if your not likely to touch elements of it in the short term. (kubernetes im looking at you, even if it is an interesting subject but imo its far more devop vs sys admin but still worth learning).

Cant speak for anyone else but if i try and get a sign off for a new server it takes a real effort getting a business case signed off but cloud solution its blank cheque time even if its not the most cost effective.
 
Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
2,692
Location
Nr Colchester, Essex
The cloud is not magical. You will be amazed how many people switch to cloud based services and suddenly security, patching and management goes completley out the window. Skills are still relevent and transferable, especially if you are just in the "Lift and Shift" phase replacing your on-prem VM's for Cloud VM's. Take a look at the shared responsibility model, there is still a lot you are responsible for as a customer. As your cloud journey progresses and things move towards more managed services and "Serverless" / SaaS offerings more responisbility is on the Cloud Provider and it gets easier for Developers to cut out the middle person (Ususally the Infrastructure folk).

I moved my career to Cloud in 2015 and haven't looked back. There is a massive skill gap at the moment, there aren't enough expirenced engineers with cloud skills. As I said the skills are transferable you just need to up-skill on your provider of choice and away you go.
 
Soldato
Joined
29 Dec 2014
Posts
5,780
Location
Midlands
My 2cents as a Network Engineer with more than 20 years experience.

I worked for one of the large west coast game studios for 4 years, we ran our own data centres and spent in the range of $200-300M on building our own global, low-latency network for gaming. At the time it was the only option available to us, if you wanted to deliver a zero packet-loss, low ping experience to players - you simply had to have your own infrastructure. Routing player traffic over the internet, via paths which change from day to day, over congested IX links and crappy transit providers, does nothing but deliver a rubbish experience, to cap it all off - when you get DDOS'd - the provider simply disables your links to the DC, to protect their other customers.

We purchased extremely expensive low-latency routes, things that no ordinary company would buy because it wouldn't make business sense - but with the company ethos revolving around 'player experience above everything else' and we could easily afford it, it was worth it. It was a big success.

At the same time, despite being pretty good at running a network - for a whole host of reasons we were not so great at running data centres, as a result the business decided that we'd start moving the servers into AWS, This was good and bad. It was good because it's almost too easy and getting something going would be a matter of minutes or hours instead of having to wait for servers to be purchased etc. It was bad because developers - who had no knowledge of how to build infrastructure, would simply spin things up all over the place inside AWS, without any real design knowledge, or knowledge of how to build resiliant systems - things would break for silly reasons and we ended up with a virtual birds-nest of things.

At this point our global network was routing traffic to AWS servers via AWS directconnect - a feature that allows you to directly connect your own infrastructure to AWS in the region where your instances are. Because AWS was only in limited regions, AWS's own peering and transit connectivity sucked compared to players being routed directly into the AWS region via our own POPs - which were all rigged for low latency and as close to the players as possible.

The big 'alarm bell' rang for me, when AWS released a feature called 'global accelerator' essentially - this allows a customer, to spin up their services in any region they like (or all regions if they wish) and traffic can be routed via 'anycast' from anywhere, to whichever region is closest. You can then ride AWS's own backbone, to get data from other regions - essentially you're using AWS's own internal infrastructure where you'd normally use your own WAN or MPLS network.

The fateful date eventually came, when the business decided to do a comparison between our network, vs AWS's global accelerator. At first we thought that our specially crafted network, designed entirely for one thing (64 byte packets, pings of <30ms and zero packet loss) would make a mockery of AWS and we had nothing to worry about. We made changes to the game clients, so that when the system ran the matchmaking loop, it would 'ping' both networks, ours and AWS's - then put you on whichever has the lowest ping.

In an instant, literally 50- 60% of all the players were flipped to the AWS side. In some areas almost all of them flipped to AWS, the pings were the same or lower and crucially the experience was the same or better. Some areas we did beat AWS by quite a margin, but they were more remote regions with fewer players - or areas which are an absolute nightmare to build connectivity where the cloud providers aren't very well established yet (South America)

At this point the die was cast, despite the full AWS service being hellishly expensive - developers could now build a game, build the infrastructure for it and connect players to it, without them having to work with anybody internally. We ended up having conversations like this; "We want to turn on this stuff on the network, what do we need to do" "You need to do this short list of things" "oh ok - if it's going to cause issues, we'll just turn it up in AWS' people naturally take the path of least resistance, and there was no getting around that fact.

I realised at this point that the future is limited for companies which have their own infrastructure. AWS is very expensive, but it's priced very cleverly. Amazon know exactly how much it costs to build infrastructure, they know exactly where the pain points are, and once you have that convenience and you've tasted it, it's very difficult to go back. Bottom line - if we were running a global e-sports title now, in 2021 - we wouldn't entertain the idea of building any private infrastructure. With $100Bn and a team of 1000 engineers, I couldn't design a network that would beat AWS - nobody can, it's a pointless endeavour.

I've watched a number of companies disappear recently, one notable example was a startup which around 15 of my friends moved to (specialised in low latency gaming traffic) - at one point they were carrying most of the traffic for Fortnite in Asia and a few other places, because AWS was crap. Then Amazon decided to tweak their routing and do some optimising, overnight all the traffic flipped to AWS and the entire company went bust.

From a career perspective, I wasn't really sure what the future held for me - and then AWS reached out to me and offered me a senior engineering role, designing next-gen IP fabrics, routing and automation, which is where I am now... My options are far more limited than they were say 5-10 years ago, when everybody was building their own MPLS networks and stuff. Those problems have simply gone away, the cloud providers have become so large, have such good infrastructure that you'd be a madman to build any sort of network unless you absolutely had to.

Cant speak for anyone else but if i try and get a sign off for a new server it takes a real effort getting a business case signed off but cloud solution its blank cheque time even if its not the most cost effective.

I've witnessed this many times, and it speak volumes as to where people are really willing to spend their money. At the game studio I mentioned, the company struck a deal with AWS (we were a top 10 AWS customer, and had a seat at their table) where we comitted to spent a frankly insane amount of money, over three years. The end result was that you could literally spend any amount of money on AWS and the bill would just get added to the 'tab' and disappear until the end of the year when we'd get the AWS bill; a bill that ended up being on the high end of 9 figures..... Yet - if I wanted a *small* amount of money, such as $250-500k to equip a new POP, I'd have to go through the eye of a needle, it sucked.
 
Soldato
Joined
12 Dec 2006
Posts
5,137
We moved to Office 365 and SharePoint Online end of 2019. Since then we've been slowly moving lots of legacy systems and file shares into the cloud. Even our phones are online now. We've lots on prem systems on MS SQL and it's only a matter of time before they all move to Azure. I see the pressure to outsource new applications to cloud based providers. Again less resistance to fund this than other stuff. Also the usual culprits in business units see this as a means of bypassing IT depts influence and control of new systems.

I noticed I'm spending a lot less time in VPNs and VM than I used to. It's mostly in the cloud. I had fallen into a SQL DBA role, but main DBA didn't want to share, so I made the conscious decision to personally focus on the SharePoint side of things. Which has been a good call.

I had hope to move back into more web design but that's all been out sourced. New applications are all done mostly by contractors. I'd do more power apps but they are hobbled by the security officers restrictions.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
8,118
Location
The Land of Roundabouts
....
Yet - if I wanted a *small* amount of money, such as $250-500k to equip a new POP, I'd have to go through the eye of a needle, it sucked.

Fantastic post!

I love how $250k is classed as small in your world :) that would cover the budget of company i work for a few years! :D

its really puts into perspective just how much aws has grown over the years.
one real positive to how its changed how applications are made to be scale-able (from a infrastructure perspective), dev's cant get away with just adding resources to overcome issues, they really need to be on the ball with their analytics and the nuances of design choice.
 
Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
8,118
Location
The Land of Roundabouts
I had hope to move back into more web design but that's all been out sourced. New applications are all done mostly by contractors. I'd do more power apps but they are hobbled by the security officers restrictions.

Powerapps are a love hate thing, im not a huge fan of the no code movement per-say as it brings in so many inefficiency's but when you just want to create a quick app/workflow you really cant beat it, just wish it was quicker for the most part. And MS have a real habit of updating/changing something that brings the house of cards down, especially if your using it in creative ways to overcome its shortcoming.
but its the future and you'd do very well getting onboard even if its just for your own benefit! :)
 
Associate
Joined
12 Sep 2006
Posts
758
There are still gaps in the cloud managed solutions, which most companies don’t consider when moving to the cloud. They will likely get a ‘lights on’ solution, otherwise they will likely rethink due to cost! They gaps can be filled, so for example a shift into projects or security might be suitable. It depends how large the company you work for is. Or, who will tell them what to do? Yep - they still need auditing etc. Then there is cloud vs ‘lift & shift your data centre’ which means the OS level stuff still needs fixing, it’s just not in the room next door…
 
Associate
Joined
27 Oct 2003
Posts
568
I work for a company who moved a small section of the services to the cloud. The bill is nearly half a million each month in fees, they have burnt through millions+++! Now after several years of an expensive bill majority of it is coming back to on prem. The cloud is the future but only for certain services and applications. Its so easy to rack up huge bills and lift and shift things. The reality is that the sys admin will always exist, youre still needed to look after this up there.

For SMB its a mixed bag. I have one company that fully went to cloud and regretted it, broke even with costs however when something went wrong the costs to get it all working and things spiralled out of control.

Others have done a hybrid setup with certain services up there, this works fine but costs the same as hosting on prem. For the sake of saying 'the business is in the cloud' its not worth it. When something goes wrong the extra time spent to fix it is twice as much and often out of your control.

i am only a cloud follower if its done right and you have the support and processes in place. Patching ,security and backup/ restore can get so messy if your not prepared will hit you in the face hard.
 
Soldato
Joined
15 Sep 2009
Posts
2,890
Location
Manchester
I work for a company who moved a small section of the services to the cloud. The bill is nearly half a million each month in fees, they have burnt through millions+++! Now after several years of an expensive bill majority of it is coming back to on prem. The cloud is the future but only for certain services and applications. Its so easy to rack up huge bills and lift and shift things. The reality is that the sys admin will always exist, youre still needed to look after this up there.

For SMB its a mixed bag. I have one company that fully went to cloud and regretted it, broke even with costs however when something went wrong the costs to get it all working and things spiralled out of control.

Others have done a hybrid setup with certain services up there, this works fine but costs the same as hosting on prem. For the sake of saying 'the business is in the cloud' its not worth it. When something goes wrong the extra time spent to fix it is twice as much and often out of your control.

i am only a cloud follower if its done right and you have the support and processes in place. Patching ,security and backup/ restore can get so messy if your not prepared will hit you in the face hard.

We're saving around £4-5m a month by running On-Prem, admittedly some of the AWS Architecting was done before we understood how to do it properly, quite a lot of EC2 instances, but now that we're primarily running things like K8S and the likes On-Premise affords us the control. We still have a large Cloud presence, but a huge Private Cloud presence more than anything. I think Cloud is so subjective, and so many people just go all in and go on about the benefits of full cloud without understand the disadvantages.
 
Associate
Joined
27 Oct 2003
Posts
568
We're saving around £4-5m a month by running On-Prem, admittedly some of the AWS Architecting was done before we understood how to do it properly, quite a lot of EC2 instances, but now that we're primarily running things like K8S and the likes On-Premise affords us the control. We still have a large Cloud presence, but a huge Private Cloud presence more than anything. I think Cloud is so subjective, and so many people just go all in and go on about the benefits of full cloud without understand the disadvantages.

I couldn't agree more. If it ticks all the boxes and points out weigh on prem go ahead but don't blindly go cloud or on prem until you know what you want.

We are saving millions with the new subscription based licensing/ support that is now starting to gain traction rather than buying licenses ana support outright each year
 
Back
Top Bottom