On road mapping via the internet

[ChrisD.]

I think someone I spoke to at the recent RR meet said their car was mapped remotely, by getting datalogs, sending them to their tuner, and then applying changes, rinse and repeat. I know from a few tuners in the Honda scene that road mapping beats dyno tuning but it is time consuming and often difficult in high BHP cars to stretch the legs in taller gears.

Does anyone here use this tuning method? If so, how do you find it? Keen to hear general views on this. Reason I ask is that I have been offered to have my map on the Evo tweaked by a very well respected and regarded US based tuner who sadly probably won't be coming to the UK again. It just means buying the OBDII tool and some software (no biggy I guess).

 

[Gaijin]

I presume you are talking about Mase and Evoscan?

I'm pretty sure I've heard that mapping by Dyno first and road later - if at all, if the best option as using the dyno can hit load sites that you mightn't be able to hit on the road.

You could then use a road later on for a more real world perspective.

However, I am no tuner and this is only what i've heard.

Personally I'd just get it done properly by a trusted tuner. I appreciate that you've already tried that by your other thread and I assume that you are looking into this as a consequence of that, but it might just be a case of biting the bullet and getting a second opinion.

 

[ChrisD.]

Yeah you pretty much nailed it. Powerstation want £60+ vat to put it on the dyno and have a look at the boost/fueling etc.

 

[Gaijin]

Ok, and am I assuming that the issue you reported in the other thread is still apparent?

I'm not going to go into the details of your correspondence with the original tuner and why he won't address this, but is it not worth just paying the 60 quid and getting it checked?

I'm not sure of Powerstation's familiarity with the Evo compared to other more well known tuners in the Evo community but is there no-one else Evo-specific you can take it to? I'm not doubting Powerstation's credibility but obviously tuners that see the same car day-in-day-out are more likely to know the foibles.

Other options are to find a prominent geekmapper and see if they will take a look (which will usually cost you little to nothing dependent on who it is) and/or if you were to get a cable and Evoscan anyway (which I would highly recommend you do anyway) you may be able to record the maps and AFR logs (depending if you have a wideband installed or not) and put them online for inspection

Feel free to ping us an email (in trust) if there is anything you'd rather not discuss on a public forum.

 

[Dr Who]

Usually best to get a baseline map on the dyno then move to the road for tweaking.

 

[ChrisD.]

Thanks Gayjin.

I can't quite put my finger on it, but I'm not particularly fond of the map. It feels lumpy at times part throttle and that noise on WOT in higher gears puts me off. Having never had a turbo car before perhaps the lumpyness is a trait, I'm not sure, but if I'm part throttle then back off, sometimes the car sort of jerks. I think it did it before as well.

Looking at the Evoscan software, it seems it comes with a cable? Then I buy the Tactix seperately? There's one on eBay I'm looking at to avoid having to import one from the US. How much is the software?

 

[arch]

if I'm part throttle then back off, sometimes the car sort of jerks.

My Evo 7 used to jerk quite violently at times doing exactly that

 

[Matt82]

half of the job when a car is being mapped is configuring the engine's response to your inputs and the overall feel of the engine

i dont see how its possible to sort out those sorts of things with just obd data

 

[Frozennova]

Matt doesn't toyotec do most of his mapping on road rather than dyno?

Or does he just tweak and perfect it on the road?

 

[Gaijin]

I can't quite put my finger on it, but I'm not particularly fond of the map. It feels lumpy at times part throttle and that noise on WOT in higher gears puts me off. Having never had a turbo car before perhaps the lumpyness is a trait, I'm not sure, but if I'm part throttle then back off, sometimes the car sort of jerks. I think it did it before as well.

Going from a Honda to an Evo myself, I haven't noticed any lumpiness or running issues at all. In fact one of the things I was most impressive was how responsive the car was off boost.

Obviously there is a big difference when the car comes on boost, and I suppose it is slightly less refined when backing off the throttle sharply, but I always put that down to the sharp change from the amount of torque being applied.

Looking at the Evoscan software, it seems it comes with a cable? Then I buy the Tactix seperately? There's one on eBay I'm looking at to avoid having to import one from the US. How much is the software?

I paid 25 dollars for the software and 90 odd quid for the"Limitless 1.3u Cable for Mitsubishi EVO (up to EVO IX)"

Wow, I'd forgot how much that cost - I'd better fish it out from my massive cable bag

My Evo 7 used to jerk quite violently at times doing exactly that

Strange, mine doesn't and has never done that. Although I am running an Evo 8 MR turbo and actuator. Not sure if that has an effect.

 

[ChrisD.]

Is that the Tactrix cable or the Evoscan one?

 

[Gibbo]

I think someone I spoke to at the recent RR meet said their car was mapped remotely, by getting datalogs, sending them to their tuner, and then applying changes, rinse and repeat. I know from a few tuners in the Honda scene that road mapping beats dyno tuning but it is time consuming and often difficult in high BHP cars to stretch the legs in taller gears.

Does anyone here use this tuning method? If so, how do you find it? Keen to hear general views on this. Reason I ask is that I have been offered to have my map on the Evo tweaked by a very well respected and regarded US based tuner who sadly probably won't be coming to the UK again. It just means buying the OBDII tool and some software (no biggy I guess).

Funny how road mappers say mapping live on the road is better than a dyno, guess it is the kind of thing they will say when they can't afford a dyno.

My car was mapped via email, but the difference was it was a tuner in the USA who had a dyno and had mapped over 1000 of the same car/configuration as it was a Mustang.

I'd want my car done on a dyno, the can place probes all over the car, engine bay, exhaust and check absolutely every sensor along with AFR's. Road mapping is completely thrown off if you happen to have say a faulty 02 sensor.

Get it on a dyno and I recommend Powerstation, those guys just seem to know what they are doing and they've mapped lots of EVO's and Impreza's, plus the fact people take much more expensive machinery to them.

I'd always go to a dyno first to ensure everything is as it should be, then after this if any fine tuning needs to be done it can be done on either road or dyno.

 

[Gaijin]

Is that the Tactrix cable or the Evoscan one?

It''s just the evoscan one - I didn't need anything else that the Tactrix offered. It's this one:

http://www.gb-ent.com/index.php/ele...3u-cable-for-mitsubishi-evo-up-to-evo-ix.html

This allows you to flash the ecu and read the maps, along with using the diagnostic tools that Evoscan provides, I didn't need it to do anything else.

Funny how road mappers say mapping live on the road is better than a dyno, guess it is the kind of thing they will say when they can't afford a dyno.

Yeah there seems to be a bit of too'ing and fro'ing about it - road tuners don't/can't afford dynos and dyno tuners have spend thousands on a dyno cell - not a great deal of impartiality either way!

So as I said, probably the best thing to do is to do the first tune it on the dyno and then take it on the road and tweak.

 

[rjk]

if you're not 100% happy with the remap, why aren't you taking it back to the place where it was mapped and telling them this?

get them to set the car up to suit your needs

 

[Matt82]

Matt doesn't toyotec do most of his mapping on road rather than dyno?

Or does he just tweak and perfect it on the road?

yup, on the road and uses a g meter so you get a visualisation of the torque and how its changing

 

[Will]

I'm having vitviper do the flashpro map for my car, I'm on about the 19th map revision now....

I think there are pros and cons to both dyno and road/datalog mapping really, but to get so many fine tweaks to the map on a dyno would cost a hell of a lot of money compared to the road mapping/datalogging and map revisions sent via email based upon the flashpro datalogs.

 

[Frozennova]

yup, on the road and uses a g meter so you get a visualisation of the torque and how its changing

Thought as much, don't the g plots usually correlate pretty much spot on with what the dyno says aswell.

If that's the case then road mapping by somebody who knows what they're doing is going to be better than dyno mapping, especially as they will take driveability into account.

 

[Matt82]

Dynos can be used to make numbers but from the people I know that map cars mapping on the road is a really valuable tool

As for not being able to afford a dyno, practically anywhere with a dyno will allow you to use their dyno for a price

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Thought as much, don't the g plots usually correlate pretty much spot on with what the dyno says aswell.

If that's the case then road mapping by somebody who knows what they're doing is going to be better than dyno mapping, especially as they will take driveability into account.

Assuming the road is always flat and you only want full throttle data....

A dyno will always be better, its what OEMs do the calibrations on that most mapping software is simply modifying. Road tuning just smooths stuff out for driveability or even marketing... Ie VTEC cam shift point.

You need dyno load sites for holding steady state whilst you tune ignition... You simply can't do that on the road.

 

[Simon]

I did say in the previous thread that most maps focus on peak power / WOT torque curves and forget drive ability and feel.

I've mapped several cars in my past life including on an engine dyno and the part throttle mapping and fuel enrichment is more fiddly and time consuming than just going for outright power.

Lumpy at part throttle is often lean-misfires, especially on transient enrichment. To be honest if it's lumpy in this weather it's likely to be worse when the weather gets colder.