**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

Gashman said:
yeah i agree, mutalisks are flipping useless. though i do still value brood lords they are very expensive and time consuming, those other zerg air units (forget what they are called) are limited to say the least, they can deal with minor air engagements, but they suffer when they are one vs. one with most air units. ultralisks do indeed take a while to get, usually when your in a strong position (if not hydralisks/zergling are probably better option, and roaches of course).

for me the biggest problem with zerg (which i might tinker with) is how lacking their defencive structures are, you can build an absolute ton of spine crawlers just to see a bunch of immortals walk right through them without much hastle or worse still, siege tanks! zerg need higher regeneration rate IMO, their buildings would also be improved with some extra armour. get rid of the stupid nydus worm scream, since it makes sneak attacks using them pretty pointless unless you get your enemies full attention. the only option i think in competative games with zerg is rushing, and constantly, zergling get chewed up but you can get so many of them quickly, sometimes it works.

another useful addition to zerg would be to bring back the devourer (i think thats the name) from starcraft I, the anti-air unit with the splash damage that slows ROF for all units covered, the effect was also cumulative. wouldn't mind seeing the 'spawn broodling' ability brought back for the queen as well, would help deal with those pesky tanks, immortals without overpowering the queen too much.

but all in all i agree that zerg do suffer at the hands of protoss and terran (the latter especially in my experience), hope they add something to bring the zerg upto standard in 'heart of the swarm' whenever it comes out.
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Spine Crawlers are the best anti Ground Defense. They are actually quite awesome. The only changes I'd make to them are make their burrow/unburrow animation much faster. They are not meant to stop immortals or tanks. Thats what your army are there for. They are their to stop Tier 1 (as are all static ground defense) They should also be used in conjunction with Queens who add another attack as well as healing.

The Nydus would be so completely overpowered if it did not scream. Just imagine happily marching your army halfway across the map to find the enemy had emptied their army into your base killed off your minerals and most of your production then popped back to their base instantly to defend their base. In my opinion the Nydus network needs more HP, a faster spawning time, and needs to eject units at double or triple the rate or alternatively each nydus network should be able to spawn multiple worms concurrently.

Massing lings does not work in the mid-late game. Siege tanks/colossus and psy storm (to name a few) all decimate lings so fast its not even funny. They are useless offensively against Terran and Protoss early game due to these races walling off. (You might get lucky and catch the enemy with their pants down for a ling run-by but all the same thats luck not skill) Lings are a distraction/meatsheild that work well in conjunction with a ranged unit. Massing any unit (except the marauder ;) ) in SC should not work
Additionally they are not very larva efficient (i.e. if you keep building only lings once on 2+ bases your money will keep going up) Once you are on tier 2 you should focus more on hydras or mutas and only have 20 supply (40) lings for flanking/meatshield. Roach Hydra is much more robust than mass lings.

What Zerg need is a ranged unit at the mid game that can effectively hold choke points. something to stop cliff abuse, to drop the corruptor (I mean zerg is supposed to be the massable swarming throwaway unit race so why have we a flying tank?) and replace it with Scourge.

NZXT30 said:
wow what a cry baby as he clearly got out played. all he had to do on that map is abuse the two entrances with speedlings while teching to hydras.
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Psy is one of the better (meaning top level Diamond) zerg players on the ladder and has notched up some pretty good wins against highly rated Zerg Protoss and Terran players, I believe he has been invited to the HDH2 Invitational. Overall he is QQing a bit in that game (I'm assuming its Psy Vs Silver) but that game shows quite well what a reasonably decent Terran can do to roflstomp a top Zerg (who is a very good zerg player) In fairness to Silver he did recently beat IdrA too and IdrA did make his feelings clear about the standard of play.
 
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I've managed to nail my base building/expansion and as a result can get walled in (if needed) and pump out troops pretty quick.
Won 3 out of my 4 games last night against Protoss, Terran and a Zerg players.
The protoss guy had like 4 seperate command centres so I was chasing him about for a bit.
3 barracks (2 tech labs and one reacter) Churn out marines and marauders, get some turrets up, send out marine/marauder then starport with some vikings.
Managed to bring the fight to all oponents that way
 
IdrA always does, but then thats why i love him haha ^^

im gonna run some tests with a muta/ling army against protoss, see what effect that has.

with Terran im still totally stuck unless i can harass them an insane amount.
 
Indie said:
IdrA always does, but then thats why i love him haha ^^

im gonna run some tests with a muta/ling army against protoss, see what effect that has.

with Terran im still totally stuck unless i can harass them an insane amount.
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Mutas used to work really well against Toss. But then they buffed the phoenix and now my muta play gets shut down really fast, with Phoenixes also being able to levitate units, getting Mutas, which forces phoenixes actually is a step to reducing my map control rather than improving it. Once I transition out of Air, the Phoenixes go around harassing my queens/mineral lines/overlords and then levitate my key ground units in battles. Also Toss seem to be able to transition out of Phoenixes and into Colossi or HT, without too much pain (and basically I do not want Colossi/HT on the map at all).

I've probably only got a 40% 1v1 win rate against Toss at the moment, and those wins are usually when the Toss Cheeses. Whilst I think Zerg are at disadvantage to Toss (its no where near the Terran Disadvantage), it doesn't help that there are a number of P favored maps (Kulas being the absolute worst). Basically any base with a ledge above a mineral line is not good for Zerg.

The only maps I am comfortable on are Scrap Station and Desert Oasis, and on DO the Probability of Toss Cheese is very high :(
 
Manlove is my forte said:
Mutas used to work really well against Toss. But then they buffed the phoenix and now my muta play gets shut down really fast, with Phoenixes also being able to levitate units, getting Mutas, which forces phoenixes actually is a step to reducing my map control rather than improving it. Once I transition out of Air, the Phoenixes go around harassing my queens/mineral lines/overlords and then levitate my key ground units in battles. Also Toss seem to be able to transition out of Phoenixes and into Colossi or HT, without too much pain (and basically I do not want Colossi/HT on the map at all).

I've probably only got a 40% 1v1 win rate against Toss at the moment, and those wins are usually when the Toss Cheeses. Whilst I think Zerg are at disadvantage to Toss (its no where near the Terran Disadvantage), it doesn't help that there are a number of P favored maps (Kulas being the absolute worst). Basically any base with a ledge above a mineral line is not good for Zerg.

The only maps I am comfortable on are Scrap Station and Desert Oasis, and on DO the Probability of Toss Cheese is very high :(
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Its onyl really if the toss 2 gates with early agression. if they tech, then you can fast expo and it becomes a more even game.

All the better if it forcess Protoss to Pheonix. People think they walk all over mutas...and i don't know why. If your muta micro is up to it, just run, let him chase you, then swing by for a few hits and run again (or fly in this case)

it prevents you from really harassing his mineral line but you STILL have map control which is the main thing. but it will no doubt make him heavily invest in Pheonix. allowing the transition to ling/roach/hdyra much easier. and lets face it, mutas are much more useful in full on combat than pheonix mid-game.
with the ability to hit ground and air, with splash damage. combined with hydra/ling its your game.
you'll need between 8-12 to make this effective imo.

but really love it when protoss goes for a stargate. Almost a free win unless i make mistakes in defence.

The only stipulation is that you can't lose your mutas. Plenty of lings early game before your drone power, mix in some spines to hold off the 2 gate.

Will post the replay when im home :)

I think a lot of people tend to lose their units when harassing, which is the big mistake. doesn't matter what your attacking with your mutas, so long as their there, they are a pain in the backside, he has to move units to attack them, leaving him weak in other areas. even if your attacking something insignificant like an engineering bay or something...he'll have to come get you :)
 
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Problem is I only encounter 4 Toss builds

Proxy cannon - Easy to counter and if I pay attention there after easy to win
Proxy Gate - Can cope with this if I spot it, If I spot it really early its an easy win
2gate Tech - I'm yet to figure this out
4gate - I die a horrible death, as I almost never scout it in time (or at all as my Ovie needs to retreat and my drone scout gets WTF pwned).

My ZvP used to be my strong game, but I think Toss players have started to develop stronger builds recently.

With Phoenix being faster than Mutas, a range 4 (mutas have range 3) and having a moving shot. you need to get your mutas into a place the stalker/sentries can not hit your mutas and have a critical mass of mutas before engaging phoenixes. (Theoretically 1 phoenix can kill an infinite number of mutas)

I personally find the investment of 1200 gas and minerals + spire costs and time a hard one to justify given the risk that they may not get a return of investment. That being said, I can't get a critical mass of Roach, Hydra on Kulas to do anything.

Scurge would be perfect in this situation. Fly your mutas in, harass the mineral line. have the phoenix give chase, then send the scourge in to blow them up. Send the Mutas back in and bobs your uncle, or allow the mutas a longer range/moving shot.

I'm in no way saying ZP is impossible (except on Kulas) but it is not easy (this is the wrong word no games should be easy, but I hope you know what I mean) for me at the moment... I actually prefer playing Terran at the moment (on certain maps). I think its because whilst their race is superior, I'm playing against inferior players so they just use dumb strategies or bad macro which allows me to win. I swear every Terran has seen the LZGamer reaper rush or the TLO 111 but don't understand the mechanics of the build and why they are so strong. So they **** it up so much.
 
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Indie said:
IdrA always does, but then thats why i love him haha ^^

im gonna run some tests with a muta/ling army against protoss, see what effect that has.

with Terran im still totally stuck unless i can harass them an insane amount.
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Muta ling is pretty good against toss I have been on the opposing end of it and it's not much fun. Although I'm finding templar tech is really good against it and doesn't force you to give up mid game map control (since you're running 8-10 gates instead of 4-6 and 2 robos).

Archons are _really_ awesome vs zerg if you can get a critical number of them + supporting storms.
 
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Yeah, in my opinion, temp tech with archons and stalker support is the only way to win for protoss in this situation.

Zerg has to be really skilled in the way it uses its mutalisks. Even if Protoss does go Phoenix tech, its just invested a lot of gas on something that may prove useless.

imo Phoenix will only work if the Protoss plans it from the start, in which case, he just got lucky. If the toss has to adapt to the Zerg going mutalisk, you have huge advantage.

Don't forget that its not about investing X amount of minerals and gas to take out Y units/structures worth.
Its mroe about how you can leave the opposition open to other things.

For example if your sending 8 mutas to the mineral line, he's going to send all the AA he's got. which will leave his expo open. 12 lings, will take out a good chunk.

couple that with a nydus in another part of his main if you can afford. His forces get split and are much easier to destroy than when their in a big ball.... Expand ^^
 
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Indie said:
Yeah, in my opinion, temp tech with archons and stalker support is the only way to win for protoss in this situation.

Zerg has to be really skilled in the way it uses its mutalisks. Even if Protoss does go Phoenix tech, its just invested a lot of gas on something that may prove useless.

imo Phoenix will only work if the Protoss plans it from the start, in which case, he just got lucky. If the toss has to adapt to the Zerg going mutalisk, you have huge advantage.

Don't forget that its not about investing X amount of minerals and gas to take out Y units/structures worth.
Its mroe about how you can leave the opposition open to other things.

For example if your sending 8 mutas to the mineral line, he's going to send all the AA he's got. which will leave his expo open. 12 lings, will take out a good chunk.

couple that with a nydus in another part of his main if you can afford. His forces get split and are much easier to destroy than when their in a big ball.... Expand ^^
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It's worth getting 3-4 void rays in these instances I think rather than phoenixes. As when you get the flux vane, void rays are as quick as mutas but can deal awesome damage very quickly if you drop your guard.

Using the voids defensively at first until you get a few delaying cannons up, frees up your archons and zealots to attack, with sentries and stalkers and your voids you can protect your main against any sort of attack.

It's a balanced game situation though decided on unit control, macro and game sense. In otherwords, it's well balanced :)

Unlike that _other_ infernal race :)
 
TMP said:
Think I'll just hang onto playing Zerg, Blizz must be makeing some changes soon right...right?
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they will do eventually.. might be a little while but they will come.
It took over a year to fully balance SC1. That was with little to no experience. now they have the experience of BW, and WC its getting balanced better, and at a much quicker rate.

Im shocked at how balanced it is now to be hoenst.

I remember in SC1 a spawning pool used to cost 150 minerals :D
Zerlingrush kekekekek!

I dare you to stop a 6 pool ^^
 
Milkybk said:
I got promoted into one of the platinum 1vs1 ladders today :D

It's very hard but I'm learning to adapt a lot faster and to tech much quicker than I used to. Been having great success since I started using High Templars to good effect. Still need a lot of practice against Terran though :(
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congrats dude :) what race are you playing?
 
In platinum you pretty much just need to master good 4 gate timing with either forge +1 against zerg, twlight charge vs terran or twilight blink vs protoss.

Master that one build and you'll be in diamond before long :)
 
Milkybk said:
Thanks :).

I play mainly as Protoss. I used to use a 4 gate in the lower leagues but I've completely changed tactics now for the upper leagues. Very challenging though. I'm learning hot keys ASAP as well..

I play as Terran too sometimes but not often.
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Kar is the Protoss god on here :) hes normally got some good advice!
 
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