**** Original Starcraft 2 Thread ****

Nerusy said:
He doesn't mean you Platypus, he probably means me and scott, you just expressed your experience of toss and terran play, nothing wrong with that mate.
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I wasn't really having a go at anyone. Just noticed the last few pages instead of people talking about the games its more arguing about races which is pretty pointless.

On another note, anyone fancy abit of a 2v2 marathon?
 
Nerusy said:
Scott you want me to list all toss forgiving mechanics? everything coming from cc is equivalent to toss' chrono boost you choose economy or faster production of units/research



Different mechanics of difference races who can't compare them straight on frankly, you can't compare a bunker to a canon. If you don't start a toss unit its fine they'll warp in instantly, is this a fair comparison of mistakes? no its not, then why do I have to be unbiased while you guys throw same old biased opinions?
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Toss is irrelevant. The only reason supply drop exists is to make terran more forgiving. nex20 this isn't even a balance discussion, and discussing the game within a thread about the game isn't pointless. There's nothing wrong with discussing balance, I enjoy it a lot. Why does it have to be taken personally?

Nerusy said:
Do me a favour play terran on a high level then we'll talk serious.
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Please stop telling me to play terran at a high level before I can discuss it. I feel like you think I'm personally insulting you by talking about terran. I know enough about the game to discuss whatever I want, I don't need to play the race in diamond. If I switched to terran my opinion of the race wouldn't change, I can guarantee you that. Like I said, stop taking it personally - I'm just talking about the game, I'm not insulting you by saying terran is more forgiving than the other 2 races.

btw warp gates and barracks are exactly the same. Literally the only difference is that you get the unit at the beginning of the production cycle instead of at the end. The only difference is that you have to click the units onto the map instead of pressing a hotkey. They are the same mechanics when it comes down to it.
 
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H2F Scott said:
Toss is irrelevant. The only reason supply drop exists is to make terran more forgiving. nex20 this isn't even a balance discussion, and discussing the game within a thread about the game isn't pointless. There's nothing wrong with discussing balance, I enjoy it a lot. Why does it have to be taken personally?



Please stop telling me to play terran at a high level before I can discuss it. I feel like you think I'm personally insulting you by talking about terran. I know enough about the game to discuss whatever I want, I don't need to play the race in diamond. If I switched to terran my opinion of the race wouldn't change, I can guarantee you that. Like I said, stop taking it personally - I'm just talking about the game, I'm not insulting you by saying terran is more forgiving than the other 2 races.

btw warp gates and barracks are exactly the same. Literally the only difference is that you get the unit at the beginning of the production cycle instead of at the end. The only difference is that you have to click the units onto the map instead of pressing a hotkey. They are the same mechanics when it comes down to it.
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Yes barracks and warp gates are about the same, warp gates have the advantage of instance reinforcer though and instant warp in if you have a pylon there, if you fudge up you don't have to wait for the units to be produced.

If you talk about supple depo, lets talk about chrono boost, if you forget to get a proble, no worries chrono boost, if you forgot to start the research no worries, chrono boost, its a forgiving mechanic as well as a mechanic that allows you to get ahead of the opponent in army size.

Point of my "Play terran" is that half of your "balance" talks wouldn't exist if you played them and saw that really those spells are not forgiving or easier to handle.
 
Nerusy said:
How so
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Regardless of whats been said before, Terran without a doubt do have the most forgiving strategies at little risk (and a wider range), Providing you can macro, which isn't too hard to do for an actual Terran gamer, an average player can get i'd say at least 700-800 Diamond.. as for better players..

Well, i've got to that level, and i can't macro as Terran at all, i have to go back to my base and click on each rax/fax/port individually atm.. so that goes to show really.

I find that all the strategies available, don't leave the Terran open to many counters, and each unit compliments another quite well. The only way i really get beat on as Terran is if they guess the strategy im going, and start their BO to counter mine accidentally. (if that makes sence)
...Like if i go for a thor/marine/hellion push, they are already in the process of getting their burrowed roach and infestors on the blend without them scouting.

Not saying getting higher ranks etc isnt hard, but its much much easier than it is playing, say.. as Zerg. Can't comment for protoss as i havn't divulged into that area just yet... and i can't afford another account ^^
however i find playing against protoss quite easy.
 
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Compared to zerg of course terran is easier, zerg requires a lot more micro and a lot more micro and is the most unforgiving race, no-one is denying that.

Also on the ladder I constantly meet 30 somehting apm toss. The lowest terran I saw around 50 and lowest zerg 60 but I do usually meet only toss or zerg. I know that high apm doesn't mean much but there is a lowest required apm for a given level of play and if 30 something apm toss can get into the higher half of the diamond league that says something doesn't it.
 
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Nerusy said:
Compared to zerg of course terran is easier, zerg requires a lot more micro and a lot more micro and is the most unforgiving race, no-one is denying that.
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Of course, but even compared to Protoss their pretty damn forgiving. At least thats what i find when i play them. I can make huge micro mistakes and still come out trumps, same with macro.

Im just to lloyal to the brood to re-roll i think ^^
as much as i'd like to win more!

EDIT: Anybody know where my APM is lingering around? also.. somebody mentioned that there was a nifty bit of software in which you could find out your APM from just clicking on the replays. what was that (dont wanna go trauling through the millions of pages!)
 
Lucky, micro mistakes against toss cost me the whole army and if I slack on my macro they outnumber me.

watch a replay and choose apm tab, press "M" to choose it, is that what you mean?

On average toss and terrans in my league have the same apm at around 65 and average for zergs is around 100, at least the ones I get matched against.
 
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Indie said:
Of course, but even compared to Protoss their pretty damn forgiving. At least thats what i find when i play them. I can make huge micro mistakes and still come out trumps, same with macro.

Im just to lloyal to the brood to re-roll i think ^^
as much as i'd like to win more!

EDIT: Anybody know where my APM is lingering around? also.. somebody mentioned that there was a nifty bit of software in which you could find out your APM from just clicking on the replays. what was that (dont wanna go trauling through the millions of pages!)
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When I obs you you seem to average around 120-140, which is pretty damn good.

That's about 170-200 in BW APM. :p
 
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Regarding the TvP thing, I think for the most part it's balanced. Terran do have a good early game advantage though thanks to the strength of the marauder and conc shell. Once stim and medivacs come into play Terran also are an omnipresent threat anywhere on the map.

Once protoss gets access to templar tech they have a small advantage.

The major problem PvT from the protoss side, is that they are extremely limited early game until warpgates and some sort of aoe. This gives Terran the ability to reach the mid game with an economic advantage.

If Protoss enter the mid game on even terms then usually they are in good shape for the remainder of the game. The power of templar tech somewhat mitigate dby the power of marauders and medivacs.

The other strength Terran have is the availability of a number of openings that require different counters from Protoss. This isn't so much a 'balance' issue, as a game design one. Just as Zerg can counter anything Terran throw at them, there exists the requirement to _know_ what is coming.

Protoss at least have observers. But they wont catch for example, the increasingly common 5-6 rax marine rush or the ever obnoxious fast 2 marauder 4 marine 2 scv rush.

Terran have a lot of flexibility in the early game which sets them up for the rest of the match. In PvT it's the marauder and conc shell early that's the most brutal thing tbh. Late game the way marauders and stim own buildings, is bad too. I think it's worth exchanging some sort of late game protoss nerf (templar cost to 200 gas or something) for a early game conc shell and armoured damage nerf to the 'rauder.

I think, also, repeating what I said before, making access to dt tech cheaper/faster might give protoss a weapon to 'keep the (terran) ******** honest'. I.e. if Terran blindly go 5-6 rax all in and protoss go fast dt, T should get owned. It would add a little more dynamicism to PvP (counter the now default 3 gate robo colossus vomit) and PvT play. Sadly this would break PvZ even more than it probably already is, as PvZ is becoming even more rude to the Z than ZvT if the GSL is anything to go by.

But no one plays Z anymore really so they might as well just focus on PvT balance :)
 
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Rauder + cc is really not a problem for a toss who knows what he's doing, toss has an option to go for early void rays and if terran doesn't scout that or goes marauder heavy army its gg, really toss does have option, 4 gate, 3 gate robo, zealot legs opening, stalker opening (the worst of them all), void ray / zealot, for mid game its collosi or ht's and where I am now, they favour collosi

You say that terran has an advantage early game but funny enough usually toss try to rush me with an all in before its expo time, which is an early game.
 
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Nerusy said:
Rauder + cc is really not a problem for a toss who knows what he's doing, toss has an option to go for early void rays and if terran doesn't scout that or goes marauder heavy army its gg, really toss does have option, 4 gate, 3 gate robo, zealot legs opening, stalker opening (the worst of them all), void ray / zealot, for mid game its collosi or ht's and where I am now, they favour collosi

You say that terran has an advantage early game but funny enough usually toss try to rush me with an all in before its expo time, which is an early game.
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Huh, would be interested to know more about stalker openings being effective against any marauder force. If it's one or two, then I imagine a decent amount of stalkers with a few other gateway units could certainly put the hurt on a heavy marine force.

I've definitely had some success with that early speedlot opening you helped me with. Still stuck at around 350 though so i'm miles away from the good players yet :p
 
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