Over Sharp LED LCD - Discuss

[thedoc46]

My tv is a Sharp LC46LE700E.

Some educating needed if you're unaware of how 24hz works:
Most films are 23.976 fps & if the TV supports 24hz properly with a film-mode to smooth out the motion, then the playback will be completely judder free! Which is a lot better than stuttering. CRT naturally does this as the image is not redrawn, it overwritten (I think).

Anyway, a LCD at 24hz has no more a noticeable refresh rate flash than at 60hz, UNLIKE a CRT monitor. Though at 24hz the mouse pointer kinda stutters; I use a refresh rate changer in WMC to switch refresh rates, XBMC even auto changes the refresh rate for the film fps though requires messing with config files.

When watching tv I change the refresh rate to 50hz, as the broadcast is 25fps, so the tv smooths it out, just like the tv's in-built freeview smooths out tv, you can test this on the news channel where the text scrolls across the bottom.
Also watching eg football on ITVHD looks really good & the football does not streek across the screen in a blur, its smooth & identifiable. I think some plazmas use a local 600hz screen refresh to iron out such motion blur?

Anyway I think 'smoothvision' as I call it is really good once you get used to it & is just like watching a CRT tv. Only thing is with a LED/LCD panel there may be ghosting of some tones, which is due to the LCD tech. Dunno about OLED or plazma.

OK your confusing post is confusing.

What's with the 23.95923495923 fps nonsense??? Refresh rates and FPS go hand in hand. 48hz is too noticable on a Plasma because of flicker, so they go with 60hz, unfortunately if you divide 60 into 24hz it doesn't go.. That's why they bring 3:2 pulldown, which kind of fits it all in nicely albeit with a tiny little bit of stutter here and there (not noticable to 99% of the typical plasma buying population myself included) For the true eliteists. They want it to match perfectly hence 96hz because 24hz x4 is 96hz so the refresh rate fits in perfectly to the framerate of the movie, giving you the movie in all its 24fps stutter as the director intented.

The 600hz is the subfield freq of the new Panasonic plasma's which is something completely different. and to a certain extent marketing pap.

Oh and movies are shot in 24fps for editing reasons and now since we've all become customed to it. It's now how we percieve on how a film should look.

 

[juno_first]

Theres no such thing as refresh rate flicker on LCD/LED, thats an older CRT/plazma issue.

Films are usually 23.976fps which is very close to 24fps, so when viewed at 24hz they only stutter once in a blue moon.

3:2 pulldown for 23.796fps playback at 60hz dont work as well as 24hz playback & no one can achieve judder free 1080p playback above 24hz on LCD/LED until if 48p arrives, I dont know about plazma.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

I thought this would be fun, as it's often a hot topic in any LED / LCD thread.


Plasma die hards argue that LED (full array) LCD look oversharp... I myself like this look.

SO do I.

Then the stuff on the screen starts moving and suddenly its not as sharp.

k Thx Bye

 

[thedoc46]

Theres no such thing as refresh rate flicker on LCD/LED, thats an older CRT/plazma issue.

Films are usually 23.976fps which is very close to 24fps, so when viewed at 24hz they only stutter once in a blue moon.

3:2 pulldown for 23.796fps playback at 60hz dont work as well as 24hz playback & no one can achieve judder free 1080p playback above 24hz on LCD/LED until if 48p arrives, I dont know about plazma.

Huh ? I can notice flicker on my computer LCD at anything below 60hz.. Why would that be any different to an LCD TV? Please explain, since you're the expert..

Either way, be that as it may, LCD's can't handle motion anywhere near as good as Plasmas..

 

[thedoc46]

SO do I.

Then the stuff on the screen starts moving and suddenly its not as sharp.

k Thx Bye

lol

 

[juno_first]

Yes, images blur at the cinema too as the film passes past the lens at 24 images/sec. Thats how the illusion of motion is created. Have you ever pressed pause when watching a film? but then to believe thats not blurred because of the tv is daft.
Of course when things move at a certain speed they will blur until higher fps video arrives (drool).
LCD does have an issue with ghosting tones depending on the tv, but that dont mean a football blurs as its kicked across the field.

There is deffo no flicker on a LCD/LED tv at 24hz, to believe otherwise is living in denial of a superior technology.

Either way, a plazma owner will always swear his tv is better than LCD/LED & vice verser.
The tech that stays will be the best.

 

[stellasuppa]

i wonder what oled will bring to the table
http://www.sony.co.uk/product/tvp-oled-tv/xel-1
just to tease us all

 

[thedoc46]

Yes, images blur at the cinema too as the film passes past the lens at 24 images/sec. Thats how the illusion of motion is created. Have you ever pressed pause when watching a film? but then to believe thats not blurred because of the tv is daft.
Of course when things move at a certain speed they will blur until higher fps video arrives (drool).
LCD does have an issue with ghosting tones depending on the tv, but that dont mean a football blurs as its kicked across the field.

There is deffo no flicker on a LCD/LED tv at 24hz, to believe otherwise is living in denial of a superior technology.

Either way, a plazma owner will always swear his tv is better than LCD/LED & vice verser.
The tech that stays will be the best.

Well if you have the set set to 120hz for watching regular TV footie, the ball will not blur.. Thanks to its digital trickery. My argument is 120hz is not right for watching movies, and since we all like to watch movies on our TV's, LCD's are only good for half the job.

 

[khrall]

Either way, a plazma owner will always swear his tv is better than LCD/LED & vice verser.

True.

The tech that stays will be the best.

Not necessarily true.

 

[thedoc46]

The tech that stays will be the best.

Unfortunately the tech that is the least expensive to produce and that will make the most profit will be the one that stays. Perhaps Plasma maybe driven into an enthusiast niche market.. If it wasn't for Panasonic flying the flag, Plasma would have been faded out a while ago. Pioneer who made the Kuro stopped for this very reason. China and all its bleedin' cheap and nasty LCD's is hurting the industry.

 

[Corasik]

My tv is a Sharp LC46LE700E.

Some educating needed if you're unaware of how 24hz works:
Most films are 23.976 fps & if the TV supports 24hz properly with a film-mode to smooth out the motion, then the playback will be completely judder free! Which is a lot better than stuttering. CRT naturally does this as the image is not redrawn, it overwritten (I think).

Nope, European TV's run on 50hz interlaced (50 half frames or 25fps), American TV's run at 60hz interlaced (30fps).

DVD's in europe dont have the judder problems of bluray, not because CRT hid it. Simply that DVD's play movies at 25fps, they actually run the movie around 4% faster than it should be!. However it does completely eliminate judder.

on 30/60hz displays, a system called 3:2 pulldown (or is it 2:3... never can remember) inserts artificial frames into the 24fps source to "pad it". This causes judder to some peoples eyes.

 

[lucid]

Well if you have the set set to 120hz for watching regular TV footie, the ball will not blur.. Thanks to its digital trickery. My argument is 120hz is not right for watching movies, and since we all like to watch movies on our TV's, LCD's are only good for half the job.

120Hz isn't right for British 50Hz TV (the footie). You want 50Hz/75Hz/100Hz. Anything other than a 25Hz multiple is going to cause problems.

 

[MikeHunt79]

Don't all LCD panels work internally at 60Hz?

 

[Fr0dders]

120Hz isn't right for British 50Hz TV (the footie). You want 50Hz/75Hz/100Hz. Anything other than a 25Hz multiple is going to cause problems.

I wouldn't worry

the 125hz "motion smoothing" system has little resemblance to the actual frame rate of the broadcast TV

All it does is describe the extent of the processing, rather than specifically altering the signal to 125hz.

Don't all LCD panels work internally at 60Hz?

not as such, but you're right in thinking most of this "100hz, 200 hz, 125hz" stuff is all just marketing BS to describe processing effects designed to smooth out motion.

Well if you have the set set to 120hz for watching regular TV footie, the ball will not blur.. Thanks to its digital trickery. My argument is 120hz is not right for watching movies, and since we all like to watch movies on our TV's, LCD's are only good for half the job.

Ideally you want a set with "per input" settings.

As such that means you can turn of all the post processing stuff for your 24P blurays leaving it at its correct 24fps.

You can then turn on your post processing motion smoothing, noise reduction blah blah stuff, on the input that your broadcast TV goes to.

 

[juno_first]

Hear hear, I use the following WMC plugin for x264 HD (24hz) or PAL TV (50hz) for judder free playback.
I cant remember the last time I played an old fashioned DVD & 99% of all archived media is 23.976fps.

 

[Simon]

Have to agree, my house mate has recently been stuck on which TV to get, have demo'd a lot of the TVs and found that the Samsung LED LCDs definitely have the most vibrant and sharp image. Vibrancy is a little over saturated sometimes but you can calibrate them to look pretty amazing tbh. A lot of plasma owners will probably disagree. I personally feel that the latest generation of LED LCDs have overtaken Plasma now imo in terms of PQ and contrast.

Which plasmas are you comparing to?

 

[Shimmyhill]

Static LCDs ftne look really nice, shame that when they move they smear and throw away half the resoulution as the screens cant move the full image at once.

Even the Sony 903 looks messy on fast pans, not looked at its moving resolution but i imagine its below a G20 let alone a VT20 or Kuro.

I know a couple of calibrators so will ask them about proper measured colours etc as i am a bit out of the loop - needless to say i bet the OP would be disgusted with a calibrated screen and think it was way to dull with muted colours - he sounds the breed that like LCD as they like ultra bright with nuclear colours!!

 

[james.miller]

i dont know why people think plasma's aren't as sharp. I really dont get it LCDs may well pop more but that's not to be confused with sharpness.

 

[Kenai]

i dont know why people think plasma's aren't as sharp. I really dont get it LCDs may well pop more but that's not to be confused with sharpness.

Just walk into any high street electronics store (at least around here) and you'll find all the LCDs look suer sharp and the Plasmas look soft, sometimes to the point I wonder if they're running a different feed to purposely make the LCDs look better.