PCIE Soundcard or external card?

[Guest2]

I currently have a Xonar Essense ST soundcard which is PCI. I should probably replace it with something external or PCIE whilst I can change it and still get ok money for it.
Don’t mind 2nd hand, i could pick up an Essense STX for ~£60 and sell my ST for maybe £50.
Or get something different, be it PCIE or external.
It will be powering AKG K702s for main use - games and music.
I have no idea what is good / better thsn the Xonar nowadays, the Essense was a high end card but that was maybe 7 years ago - comparible to a good quality DAC costing around £250

 

[JasonM]

My 2P's on this.

I've got both the original ST and the STX II.

I've still not done a proper A/B test, however in my view STX II is a better card then the ST. Namely I think the STX II is a bit more natural sounding and relaxed than the original ST. To put into context the original ST was still superior to any motherboard audio I've ever tried.

I have read comments on one of the audio forums that people thought the STX II was better then the Cambridge Dac Magic Plus, then again everyone's view is very subjective. There are even some people that think the ST was better than the STX II that I disagree with.

 

[C64]

to get the best out of your headphones you should get an amp or amp/dac long term but for now the xonars are as good as anything out today
theres not a massive difference once you get to a certain level of dac chips its more about sound signatures of different dac chips or just max bitrates etc

 

[EsaT]

I currently have a Xonar Essense ST soundcard which is PCI. I should probably replace it with something external or PCIE whilst I can change it and still get ok money for it.
Don’t mind 2nd hand, i could pick up an Essense STX for ~£60 and sell my ST for maybe £50.
Or get something different, be it PCIE or external.
It will be powering AKG K702s for main use - games and music.

Definitely time to sell PCI card, if you can get some money out of it.
No doubt it's getting constantly harder to find buyer for legacy tech products.

Though with driver support of Asus being about worser than Creative, old STX isn't great choise.
Its latest driver is few months away from five year anniversary and support is pretty much dead.
Again newer STX II has risk for hefty compatibility problems because of using non-native sound chip through ASMedia bridge chip:
https://www.asus.com/support/FAQ/1036071


Also for gaming those Xonars use really old Dolby Headphone as HRTF and it's rather average overall.
If you play lot games in which sound plays bigger role than just something to fill background, Creative's HRTF is better with no bass bloat and such tendency for heavy echo.
K702 is extremely capable for sound positioning in games when fed good binaural signal.
(assuming your head shape is close to average)

Though if you like music without any processing, external sound cards like Sound BlasterX G6 offers direct physical button for disabling/enabling HRTF.
Which is about as easy as it should be:
We got enough "maker knows better than user" things taking control away from user.
Creative also sells B-stock for nice £70, which is darn good for the features/quality it gives.

 

[Guest2]

Hmmm, some interesting points. Jason, what about just replacing the ST with the STX (for about the same price) the STX was supposed to be similar sounding if not the same as the ST when reviewed.

C64, the ST/STX line of cards do have built in headphone amps. They are similar to a good quality external DAC

EsaT, if the drivers works (which they always have) then im happy.

Isn’t Dolby headphone just the bundled software, like Prologic II and the other stuff it can do in software?
I bought Dolby Atmos from ghe Dolby store which sounds great in games. I mainly use it with Call of duty modern warfare

Do the soundblaster cards good nowadays? I switched from SB years ago during times if EAX and when they bought the THX cert and stamped it on their terrible line of speakers that were never real THX.
I did have Soundblaster going back to SB 16 though, in the late 90s

Edit. It looks like the Soundblasterx g6 headphone amp pushes out a max of 3.5V.

The Xonar Essense i have pushes double that (7.03) for up to 600ohm headphones, an increase of +18db.

Why the lack of headphone amp power on the SB G6?

 

[JasonM]

Hmmm, some interesting points. Jason, what about just replacing the ST with the STX (for about the same price) the STX was supposed to be similar sounding if not the same as the ST when reviewed.

I've never listened to an STX (only STX II and ST), however the ST and STX II have apparently a better clock then the STX.

Just picking up comments on Sound Blaster. The last Sound Blaster I had was a Titanium HD, I never liked that card as it sounded to processed, however it was probably better if you wanted it for games and THX. Even with the Titanium HD in music mode, sound quality was down from the original Essence ST. The ST and STX II sound like a higher end CD player, where as the Sound Blaster Titanium HD sounded more processed, as if there was an extra DSP stage being involved with the Sound Blaster.

 

[EsaT]

Isn’t Dolby headphone just the bundled software, like Prologic II and the other stuff it can do in software?
I bought Dolby Atmos from ghe Dolby store which sounds great in games. I mainly use it with Call of duty modern warfare

Do the soundblaster cards good nowadays? I switched from SB years ago during times if EAX and when they bought the THX cert and stamped it on their terrible line of speakers that were never real THX.
I did have Soundblaster going back to SB 16 though, in the late 90s

Edit. It looks like the Soundblasterx g6 headphone amp pushes out a max of 3.5V.

The Xonar Essense i have pushes double that (7.03) for up to 600ohm headphones, an increase of +18db.

Why the lack of headphone amp power on the SB G6?

HRTF's are always some kind software algorithms, even if running on soundcards own processor.
Dolby Atmos for Headphone is newer one and definitely better than IIRC ~25 years old Dolby Headphone, whose non-use I understand well:
Hearing Dolby Headphone gaming recording for first time was quite shocking after all Dolby hype.
With above neutral bass headphones that bass bloat sounds pretty horrible and feel of echo is very strong.
Dolby Headphone is supposed to simulate sound of movie theaters, but I say they got lost and went to some gothic cathedral/public bath.

Recon 3D cards from time when Creative was sticking that THX everywhere were definitely substandard and should have been all priced into budget level for their worser than preceding X-Fi cards hardware.
(using chip's integrated D/A converter worser than in Xonar DGX or Audigy Fx)
Year later released Sound Blaster Z serie was good improvement in that using separate DAC.
Also software is single package instead of mess of X-Fi cards and earlier.
Though headphone output of SB Z is still basic level.

Internal Sound BlasterX AE-5 and external Sound BlasterX G5/G6 fixed that headphone amplifier part.

Essence ST outputs max 5V.
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/amp/asus-st.php#rw11
That's comparable to SBX G6.
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/amp/creative-g6-hi.php#rw50
After 20+ years of internal cards I got B-Stock SBX G6 as first external card few months ago and with 250 ohm Beyers I'm using about 10% volume at low gain.

 

[Guest2]

Essence ST outputs max 5V.
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/amp/asus-st.php#rw11
That's comparable to SBX G6.
https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/amp/creative-g6-hi.php#rw50
After 20+ years of internal cards I got B-Stock SBX G6 as first external card few months ago and with 250 ohm Beyers I'm using about 10% volume at low gain.

This reads like the ST outputs 7.03V
https://www.stereophile.com/content/asus-xonar-essence-ststx-soundcards-measurements

and 7.03V (+18dB for headphones with impedances of >300 ohms)

I have it set to High gain (+12db) instead of extra high (+18db) on about 1/2 volume on my K702s. The rated impedance is only 62 Ohms but they need a lot of driving. More like 400 I would say

 

[C64]

Hmmm, some interesting points. Jason, what about just replacing the ST with the STX (for about the same price) the STX was supposed to be similar sounding if not the same as the ST when reviewed.

C64, the ST/STX line of cards do have built in headphone amps. They are similar to a good quality external DAC

EsaT, if the drivers works (which they always have) then im happy.

Isn’t Dolby headphone just the bundled software, like Prologic II and the other stuff it can do in software?
I bought Dolby Atmos from ghe Dolby store which sounds great in games. I mainly use it with Call of duty modern warfare

Do the soundblaster cards good nowadays? I switched from SB years ago during times if EAX and when they bought the THX cert and stamped it on their terrible line of speakers that were never real THX.
I did have Soundblaster going back to SB 16 though, in the late 90s

Edit. It looks like the Soundblasterx g6 headphone amp pushes out a max of 3.5V.

The Xonar Essense i have pushes double that (7.03) for up to 600ohm headphones, an increase of +18db.

Why the lack of headphone amp power on the SB G6?

no they are not my amp does 200mw at 600ohms be lucky to get 1 mw at 600ohm from a soundcard

 

[Guest2]

no they are not my amp does 200mw at 600ohms be lucky to get 1 mw at 600ohm from a soundcard

No what are not?
The DAC on the Xonar is powered from +12V of a molex connection (that goes into the soundcard) Not sure what powers the external Soundblaster X G6

 

[C64]

No what are not?
The DAC on the Xonar is powered from +12V of a molex connection (that goes into the soundcard) Not sure what powers the external Soundblaster X G6

300 Ohm loading is 120 mw, my sennheiser hd650 sound anemic even with 300mw
I'm just saying soundcards just cant push the same juice as headphone amps

 

[Guest2]

300 Ohm loading is 120 mw, my sennheiser hd650 sound anemic even with 300mw
I'm just saying soundcards just cant push the same juice as headphone amps

Mine (Xonar essense) seem to do fine driving AKG 702s. No, i doubt soundcards can't push as near as dedicated headphone amps but for the time (10 years ago) the Xonar had great writeups

Headphone wise it says

The headphone driver is a Texas Instruments TPA6120A2 chip, a current-feedback design capable of sourcing 80mWpc into 600 ohms with very low distortion

https://www.stereophile.com/computeraudio/asus_xonar_essence_ststx_soundcards/index.html

I'm only looking to replace it because PCI is going to die out soon and might aswell cash in and get something either PCIE or external DAC / headphone amp of similar quality and price... not spend £1000 on something that can drive £1000 headphone. I'm looking for something around £100 to drive £100 headphones!

 

[james.miller]

Schitt Heresy is supposed to be steller for the money (£115) and it's got bags of power as well. Id be looking at one of them and an external dac to replace your soundcard.

 

[DataVampire]

Fiio k5 pro has had stella reviews

 

[Guest2]

Don’t headphone amps like the fiio and heresy also require a soundcard/dac meaning additional cost?

 

[C64]

Don’t headphone amps like the fiio and heresy also require a soundcard/dac meaning additional cost?

yes but many good amps have a dac built in it's all model dependent , audio science review is a good site to check things

it depends on the headphones you use and future plans something like the ifi zen would do you well if not using hard to drive headphones it has a good burrbrown dac chip and decentish headphone amp but can be used as just a dac and add own headphone amp later

Im going for a thx headphone amp myself as the way I see it its a headphone amp for life almost

 

[DataVampire]

Don’t headphone amps like the fiio and heresy also require a soundcard/dac meaning additional cost?

No the fiio is a headphone/dac combo and for the money pretty hard to beat so i have read. loads of reviews on youtube,

 

[Guest2]

No the fiio is a headphone/dac combo and for the money pretty hard to beat so i have read. loads of reviews on youtube,

£165 for the fiio. High gain is +10db, high on the Xonar I have now is +18db.

What more to you get over say a good quality soundcard?

 

[DataVampire]

£165 for the fiio. High gain is +10db, high on the Xonar I have now is +18db.

What more to you get over say a good quality soundcard?

No idea i have got the sus Xonar Essence STX II.
The reviews of the fiio say it competes with dac/amps much higher in price. i would have thought the dac is far superior on the fiio ?
I have also seen it can drive very difficult to drive headphones.

All i can say is watch some of the reviews about it and considering how old the essence line of cards is with the newer chip sets in the fiio amp/dacs. If i was looking into iether buying a sound card or a external amp/dac i would defo get a external amp/dac. and i would be looking at the fiio.

 

[JasonM]

All i can say is watch some of the reviews about it and considering how old the essence line of cards is with the newer chip sets in the fiio amp/dacs.

It's quality over age.

The reason the Essence cards were so good was the output stage electronics. I've got plenty of motherboards with modern DAC's released after the Essence cards, but they all sound inferior to the Essence cards. What i'm saying is you can have the latest DAC but it's still no guarantee that product will sound better.

The real problem with sound cards is they eventually loose support. In my life i've had 8bit sound blasters, AWE 32's, Gravis Ultrasound, they all go the same way being as some point they are not supported. In contrast I have some Pioneer DAC amps from 1991 and the S/PDIF on them still works!