Piracy and Small Game Developers

[Bloodshot]

You dont know ANYONE with a chipped Xbox or PSP? you live on the moon?

Most people i know have kids who just want to turn it on and play, not boot up and install, log in and get to servers, they dont have the time to do it and consoles are a quick fix. Games cost what £40 each, kids burn through one a week, 2 consoles, £80 a week on games.... or chip it for £75 and then about £1 a game...

Loads more pirating on consoles than PC's, but PC's have internet access...

IMO of course.

I'd say 95% of people who own a 360 and PS3 don't even know they can chip them. They are often more hassle then they are worth (chipping I mean), due to the constant need to update the firmware and the problems with playing online.

I've not looked into it for a while, but the last time I checked chipping a 360 was pretty damn hard.

 

[Weebull]

He did say a good game, not a well reviewed game.

Ah, I see now. An entirely subjective opinion, rather than anything than can actually be measured objectively! Genius.

Yes, good games always sell. That's why I'm eagerly awaiting Psychonauts 2, Grim Fandango 2, and Beyond Good and Evil 2. That's why mash-one-button-up borefest Dynasty Warriors ended after one game.

Get real. Advertising and marketing does far more to sell a game in our day and age than its neccesary "goodness".

Do you know how many people pirate Half-Life and other such games yet they still make money because they are good games.

Valve are one of the few companies to make a decent money from single-player PC games because they sensibly tied it to an online download model that provides automatic updating and sheer ease-of-use, making it an attractive option for even the laziest of PC piraters.

How many other big PC-only single-player developers are there? Beyond Valve, it's mainly just the big engine guys like ID and the Crysis lot, because they've realised that hiding a sweet engine underneath a decent game will not only sell them a few copies of said game, but also net them a far better wage in licensing out their engines to smaller companies.

PC's are not buggy, for the most part it is the games that are buggy and the developers not working hard enough on the games that they do release for the PC, often a poor console port. There is plenty of piracy on consoles you can't pretend it doesn't happen.

Ok, buggy was used in the wrong context, but when you can program for a system you know will be exactly the same for every user, or one that has a myriad of hardware formats, and involves the pain of Windows/MFC programming, I know which one I'd choose.

There is piracy on consoles yes. There is not, however, "plenty" of it. Given the need to stay ahead of updates and such on consoles, the ability to chip it these days is left mostly to the tech-savvy, of which not every console owner is one. On the other hand, owning a decent gaming PC usually makes the owner a fairly smart person by default. Thus, someone who knows their way around finding illegal things online.

And really, which is easier? Find PC game torrent, download, mount image and install, or find modchip site/fitter, fit to/send off console, find console game torrent, download, rip in correct format to correct disc, and play, without being able to ever update the game should there be any bugs?

You really don't think PC piracy is any more rampant than console piracy? What world are you living in? This isn't just the guy in the OP that's been saying this, it's really come to light recently from several industry people, ad sadly, they're all right.

 

[apatia77]

I was just thinking, if they didn’t sell enough copies of their game to make profit etc how on earth did they release an expansion pack for it?

Aren’t expansion packs for games that sold in quite large quantities?

 

[Bloodshot]

I was just thinking, if they didn’t sell enough copies of their game to make profit etc how on earth did they release an expansion pack for it?

Aren’t expansion packs for games that sold in quite large quantities?

Expansion packs are often green lit based on projections rather than actual sales; most expansion packs development start before the original game actually ships. If the game does relatively well, but doesn't meet targets - it often makes more business sense to release the expansion pack anyway as resource has already been put into it.

 

[Margaret]

Why would anyone want to want 7 days for a pc game to download (they're huge in size) .

Erm...I use a newsgroup and can download like 10Gb in about an hour and that's bigger than most PC games.

lol

 

[fish99]

in no particular order for 2007, seeing as we are basing bioshock sales up to Q4 2007

1. Crysis
2. Orange box
3. World in Conflict
4. COD4
5. GoW
6. UT3
7. Supreme Commander
8. The Witcher
9. QW:ET
10. CNC3
11. WOW: burning crusade
12. MOH:airborne (arguable)
13. Tabula Rasa
14. BF2142
15. Medevil 2: Total war
16. Guitar Hero 3
17. Resident Evil 4
18. Doom 3 (arguable)
19. F.E.A.R
20. Pirates of the Burning Sea

No less absurd than you basing your conclusion that bioshock sales were because of piracy because it didnt sell as well as a console lol...

Since when did all those come out in 2007? Also even though I thought Bioshock was a huge dissapointment it's still better than at least 10 of those games. Frankly your opinion, or my opinion, of Bioshock is irrelevant though, the fact is it won multiple awards and has fantastic average critic and average user scores, and it's a PC series made by a long time PC developer. COD is still mainly a PC series too, just it skipped a generation, and COD3 wasn't even by IW. If you think there aren't a lot of people pirating COD4 on PC, even now months after release, just take a look at a few torrent sites.

 

[procrastinator]

Im curious as to where they got these 80% and 90% figures from, and are these figures taking into account digital distribution services such as Steam? Because as far as I'm aware steam keeps that sort of info pretty close to their chest.

 

[Chronictank]

Since when did all those come out in 2007?

Average user score is irrelevant, because in order to have an opinion on the game you need to buy the game...

And just for you because i am bored, at least do some research before you attempt to say someone is wrong

Bioshock - Aug 24, 2007

1. Crysis - Nov 16, 2007
2. Orange box - Oct 19, 2007
3. World in Conflict - Sep 21, 2007
4. COD4 - Nov 9, 2007
5. GoW - Nov 9, 2007
6. UT3 - Nov 23, 2007
7. Supreme Commander - Feb 16, 2007
8. The Witcher - Oct 26, 2007
9. QW:ET - Sep 28, 2007
10. CNC3 -Mar 30, 2007
11. WOW: burning crusade - Jan 16, 2007
12. MOH:airborne (arguable) -Nov 16, 2007
13. Tabula Rasa - Nov 2, 2007
14. BF2142 - Oct 20, 2006 << got this one wrong
15. Medevil 2: Total war -Aug 31, 2007
16. Guitar Hero 3 - Nov 30, 2007
17. Resident Evil 4 - Mar 2, 2007
18. Doom 3 (arguable) - Apr 8, 2005 << my mistake, however was still in the top 10 on a competitors top sellers chart
19. F.E.A.R +exp- Nov 16, 2007
20. Pirates of the Burning Sea - Jan 22, 2008, however beta (which i was in) was 2007

getting 2 wrong out of 20 is not bad considering they were off the top of my head, and even those are still in the top sellers lists on various sites

Also even though I thought Bioshock was a huge dissapointment it's still better than at least 10 of those games. Frankly your opinion, or my opinion, of Bioshock is irrelevant though, the fact is it won multiple awards and has fantastic average critic and average user scores, and it's a PC series made by a long time PC developer.

So you would base people who bought something else instead of bioshock's opinion on a survey collected on the opinon of people who have bought it...

Surely you can see the error in your argument?

I simply put forward games which were also available at the time, which i would buy over bioshock for the PC
And a very popular site for buying games has bioshock for the pc 30th based on sales, so there re 29 other PC games the average user would buy
Not the average person who bought Bioshock's opinion, but the average user

 

[colinuk]

I must live in a dodgy area then as almost everyone i know with a Xbox or playstaion has them chipped and its not ahrd to do at all, infact, its easyer to get it chipped than to get onto the 'net' find the sites, downlaod, mount, unpack and run a game on the PC.

I dont think its the ease of getting the software that makes piracey flurish, its the fact the price they chrage for the game is bobbins. £39.99 to buy the game, then another £10 to play each month... get real... the game should be free, and then £5-6 a month to get people playing. Over charge and people will go else where, start looking else where, or get it cheaper else where. Happens in all walks of life and is about to happen on fuel soon.

O and these patches for games that happen within 2-3 days of the game being reliesed, what a joke that is. If its nto ready, DONT RELEASE IT, how hard can that be, like getting a big mac burger without the burger and being told to come back in 2 mins, then moaning when people go somewhere else for the burger... lol...

IMO

ColiN

 

[Durzel]

I dont think its the ease of getting the software that makes piracey flurish, its the fact the price they chrage for the game is bobbins. £39.99 to buy the game, then another £10 to play each month... get real... the game should be free, and then £5-6 a month to get people playing. Over charge and people will go else where, start looking else where, or get it cheaper else where. Happens in all walks of life and is about to happen on fuel soon.

The thing is - it's not your place to state as fact whether something is too expensive or not. You have a choice not to buy it, it's that simple. You don't look at a Ferrari on a forecourt and go "that's well expensive the parts are probably only worth £20k, imma gonna nick it on the basis it's too expensive!", it's a totally flawed argument.

When faced with the choice between paying NOTHING for something, and paying ANYTHING - statistics prove the vast majority will choose the former. Why would most people pay for something they can get ostensibly at zero cost (besides Internet connection costs).

 

[Darkwave]

When faced with the choice between paying NOTHING for something, and paying ANYTHING - statistics prove the vast majority will choose the former.

Once again your statistic is based on something that is already free, not downloading illegally.

I know people who would rather buy something legally than download it illegally.

 

[Weebull]

Im curious as to where they got these 80% and 90% figures from, and are these figures taking into account digital distribution services such as Steam? Because as far as I'm aware steam keeps that sort of info pretty close to their chest.

From what I've read, it's keylogging type stuff from a few developers. Basically, every copy of their game gets registered if they play it while online, and they simply tallied that against the actual number of sales they made. Which was a lot less.

Admittedly though, from what I've read, this was mostly all from small-scale developers, nothing major, but who knows, maybe he's seen more research than me?

 

[thecremeegg]

Are you telling me no-one bought Portal? And don't say only because it was part of the orange box - I reckon most people bought the orange box *because* of Portal.

Phooey. A game is not its length.

Portal was half the price of a normal game! Even then I thought it was pushing it tbh

 

[fish99]

Average user score is irrelevant, because in order to have an opinion on the game you need to buy the game...

And just for you because i am bored, at least do some research before you attempt to say someone is wrong

Bioshock - Aug 24, 2007

1. Crysis - Nov 16, 2007
2. Orange box - Oct 19, 2007
3. World in Conflict - Sep 21, 2007
4. COD4 - Nov 9, 2007
5. GoW - Nov 9, 2007
6. UT3 - Nov 23, 2007
7. Supreme Commander - Feb 16, 2007
8. The Witcher - Oct 26, 2007
9. QW:ET - Sep 28, 2007
10. CNC3 -Mar 30, 2007
11. WOW: burning crusade - Jan 16, 2007
12. MOH:airborne (arguable) -Nov 16, 2007
13. Tabula Rasa - Nov 2, 2007
14. BF2142 - Oct 20, 2006 << got this one wrong
15. Medevil 2: Total war -Aug 31, 2007
16. Guitar Hero 3 - Nov 30, 2007
17. Resident Evil 4 - Mar 2, 2007
18. Doom 3 (arguable) - Apr 8, 2005 << my mistake, however was still in the top 10 on a competitors top sellers chart
19. F.E.A.R +exp- Nov 16, 2007
20. Pirates of the Burning Sea - Jan 22, 2008, however beta (which i was in) was 2007

getting 2 wrong out of 20 is not bad considering they were off the top of my head, and even those are still in the top sellers lists on various sites


So you would base people who bought something else instead of bioshock's opinion on a survey collected on the opinon of people who have bought it...

Surely you can see the error in your argument?

I simply put forward games which were also available at the time, which i would buy over bioshock for the PC
And a very popular site for buying games has bioshock for the pc 30th based on sales, so there re 29 other PC games the average user would buy
Not the average person who bought Bioshock's opinion, but the average user

4 out of 20, 3 of which you listed yourself and you listed Fear, not the 2nd expansion pack (which btw no one bought). No one was talking about sales, the guy said list 20 games released in 2007.

I'm sure most people who post user scores have played the game they're reviewing. I've never done a user review for a game I didn't own. It's all meaningless anyway since you're putting this forward as an argument why console gamers did buy Bioshock and PC gamers didn't, which doesn't make any sense at all. Like I said it's a PC franchise made by a PC developer, as is COD4. Just look at the number of people pirating these two games right now and then tell me they haven't been widely pirated. Also look at the ratio of people pirating them on PC:Console. 20x more on PC. Fact.

 

[Darkwave]

Also look at the ratio of people pirating them on PC:Console. 20x more on PC. Fact.

I think the guy in that interview meant that COD4 has sold 20x more than on PC, not been pirated 20x less, and it wouldn't surprise me as console gaming is mainstream where PC gaming is quite niche.

Not to mention that Xbox 360 users got an online beta to play with where no other platform did.

 

[Chronictank]

I'm sure most people who post user scores have played the game they're reviewing. I've never done a user review for a game I didn't own.

as explained before
what is regarded as 'better', there is no bar to measure against so on what grounds do you regard the game as 'better'...
If you want a meaningful discussion perhaps look at sales, what people really chose when they had to part with their cash
to draw this comparison was also flawed as mentioned by someone earlier as is Sims2 better than Bioshock? Thats what people bought after all

It's all meaningless anyway since you're putting this forward as an argument why console gamers did buy Bioshock and PC gamers didn't

No i am not,
he asked for 20 games that were released in the same year, when put into context under the premise; which game people may choose to buy instead of bioshock at the time
I gave 17, which i said before was made up off the top of my head
i am sure i could come up with more but i don't see any reason to, as the point was that there were games people would rather buy than bioshock released at the time for the pc

Like I said it's a PC franchise made by a PC developer, as is COD4. Just look at the number of people pirating these two games right now and then tell me they haven't been widely pirated.

That figure would include those who pirated and bought the game such as myself. I played the first level and ordered it on a popular website straight after
A more accurate number would be a breakdown of people who pirated and didnt buy the game, which no doubt has a fair few people but that has no bearing on the whether it's a fact that the problem is being blown way out of proportion and developers are using piracy as a scapegoat for poor quality, unoriginal products or over zelous copy protection resulting in less sales

The very fact that the witcher sold so well shows that good games do sell well, its the average to No Swearing! ones that dont sell so many
and quite rightly so

Not to mention it is unattainable, how would you create a picture of how many people have pirated a game against those who bought it?
How do you even find out how many people are legitimate users against how many aren't, seeing as everyone wont be able to play online and not everyone registers a game, sales figures dont take into account digital distrubution

So i really don't know on what you base that piracy is having an effect on game sales at all, let alone proove it is having a noticable effect

20x more on PC. Fact.

thats not a fact its a guess

 

[Plasmoid]

Is piracy killing the game industry, well its certainly hurting the pc front.

Is piracy killing small game developers... well Stardock beg to differ.

Have i ever heard of Iron Lore ot stolen one of their games... no and by the sounds of it i'll never hear of them again, so good riddance. Sounds to me like a sub-par developer makes sup-par game, gets sub-par sales, goes sub-par bankrupt.

An using the higher sales of Bioshock on console then on PC as a sign of the death of pc gaming is such a pile of BS.

Bioshock is such a console game. And it had the worst DRM for a pc game ever. It wasn't stolen it was just not bought for PC where at all possible. Make some valid arguments and then maybe i'll stop stealing games left right and centre... but until then i'll keep pirating games and buying the ones i like.

p.s. i pirated cod4 on the pc, played it online, had a ball, and bought in 360. Its sitting next to me gathering dust.

 

[Neil79]

Ubisoft announces in a press release to sue illegal downloaders of assassins creed illegal version

Ubisoft announces in a press release to sue illegal downloaders of assassins creed illegal version, which appeared some days ago on p2p and other networks. therefore Ubisoft collected manymany IP adresses and transferes them to the responsible courts of each country.

German

http://www.gamestar.de/news/pc/spie...ssassin_s_creed/1478224/assassin_s_creed.html

 

[fish99]

I think the guy in that interview meant that COD4 has sold 20x more than on PC, not been pirated 20x less, and it wouldn't surprise me as console gaming is mainstream where PC gaming is quite niche.

I'm not talking about what he said, I'm talking about what I can see right now by looking at torrent sites. There's literally 20X as many downloading COD4 on PC as on 360/PS3 combined.

 

[fish99]

thats not a fact its a guess

It's not a guess, I checked before posting. Go look for yourself.

There are ways to track piracy. You can track torrents for a start, or you can make programs that call home with cd-key info. If it doesn't stop the game running it doesn't get hacked out. They're not my numbers though so I don't have to defend them, but until someone comes up with a credible source that shows something different then I'm gonna take them at face value.

Witcher did ok, but without piracy it could have done much better. There may be other games of equal quality in less popular genres where piracy is the difference between staying afloat and going under.

Btw just a little number you might be interested - 50,000 people downloading assassins creed on PC right now.

Have i ever heard of Iron Lore ot stolen one of their games... no and by the sounds of it i'll never hear of them again, so good riddance. Sounds to me like a sub-par developer makes sup-par game, gets sub-par sales, goes sub-par bankrupt.

Average gamespot user score 84%, that's not subpar and by all accounts it's a really decent game, although I haven't played it myself. People need to stop using this good game/bad game argument. Fiat make rubbish cars but does that entitle you to go out and steal them from the dealership? No. Is it ok to shop-lift from Primark because their clothes are rubbish? No.