plan for collapse of Thames Water

[Sythe79]

What would be the point of having a state owned company making a profit to return to the state? May as well have it charge less, make no profit (but cover it's running costs) and we all pay less in the first place.

You could ask Norway what's the point of their sovereign wealth fund, I guess.

Seriously, the point is that companies that people argue should be state owned are ones that also end up taking massive amounts of public funds anyway, water power, health, telecoms etc, etc.

If the Public are paying when infrastructure is needed but not profitable, then it should also benefit when the companies are profitable.

 

[Werewolf]

The state has always made a profit on item x as they use it to substitute everything else

We mentioned above, regulators are crap, thats why Welsh etc are no better.

As I said, state run = political interference, always has, always will.
At least when privately run/owned that is minimised.

Also in the case of OFGEM IIRC they're a regulator BUT their primary responsibility isn't to the consumer, from memory it's to ensure there is "competition in the market", and that means that the market is nice and profitable for the shareholders in the short term so they will keep up the appearance of competition by starting companies that can make as much money as possible whilst the going is good.

It's one of the reasons we had so many go bust when Russia invaded Ukraine, many of the small companies were making their profit by basically not planning more than a few months ahead at most, so when the price of energy they'd been buying only a day/week in advance went up they didn't have any cash reserves to deal with it, whilst the likes of the BG who buy months ahead had time to adjust their billing.
It's also notable that we the consumer got absolutely shafted by the companies that went bust, as we ended up basically having their debts added to our bills from memory.

 

[StriderX]

The (not) funniest aspect is that the majority of the public now hate privatisation so much that it's at odds with the two main parties that they can't stop electing to save themselves. Having so many policy areas where the public isn't getting what they want is surely a gift to populists and the status quo fanatics should beware.

 

[FoxEye]

The (not) funniest aspect is that the majority of the public now hate privatisation so much that it's at odds with the two main parties that they can't stop electing to save themselves. Having so many policy areas where the public isn't getting what they want is surely a gift to populists and the status quo fanatics should beware.

FPTP is the gift that keeps on giving. Democracy in name only.

 

[randal]

Boat Race rowers told not to enter Thames due to high levels of E. coli

Crews have also been warned to cover blisters and wear footwear due to high levels of E. coli.

www.bbc.co.uk

And yet, Thames Water still have their license to operate. I suppose that won't change until the Tories are out.

 

[SpellowHouse]

Boat Race rowers told not to enter Thames due to high levels of E. coli

Crews have also been warned to cover blisters and wear footwear due to high levels of E. coli.

www.bbc.co.uk

And yet, Thames Water still have their license to operate. I suppose that won't change until the Tories are out.

TBH I think the utilities should be re-nationalised. Nothing has changed since the Conservatives sold them off, except prices have risen. I seem to remember we were promised way back then that the entire point of privatising them is that investment would increase... yet another government lie.

 

[Darujhistan]

The (not) funniest aspect is that the majority of the public now hate privatisation so much that it's at odds with the two main parties that they can't stop electing to save themselves. Having so many policy areas where the public isn't getting what they want is surely a gift to populists and the status quo fanatics should beware.

Do you think the billionaires who are/have backed populist parties are interested in re-nationalising?

National assets should never have been stolen and sold off, and their aim should never be to make a profit, outside of profits "refunded" in terms of lower bills or investment in infrastructure, even Thatcher was against privatising the RM. These utilities and Public Services were never businesses to begin with.

 

[Darujhistan]

TBH I think the utilities should be re-nationalised. Nothing has changed since the Conservatives sold them off, except prices have risen. I seem to remember we were promised way back then that the entire point of privatising them is that investment would increase... yet another government lie.

Privatisation has worked as it was always intended to, to profit the few, at the expense of the many. They haven't been badly run if you accept that the intention wasn't to provide better/cheaper services to people. It's not incompetence, it's malice.

 

[Nasher]

TBH I think the utilities should be re-nationalised. Nothing has changed since the Conservatives sold them off, except prices have risen. I seem to remember we were promised way back then that the entire point of privatising them is that investment would increase... yet another government lie.

They always sell it as re-investments will go up and prices down. But it's yet to happen at any point in history.

Like when they contract out services they always get worse.

 

[Minusorange]

Boat Race rowers told not to enter Thames due to high levels of E. coli

Crews have also been warned to cover blisters and wear footwear due to high levels of E. coli.

www.bbc.co.uk

And yet, Thames Water still have their license to operate. I suppose that won't change until the Tories are out.

I just feel bad for the wildlife, something definitely needs to change there's absolutely no reason for us to be discharging sewerage into fresh water in the 21st century

 

[arknor]

You could ask Norway what's the point of their sovereign wealth fund, I guess.

We have the Crown Estate instead

 

[SpellowHouse]

I just feel bad for the wildlife, something definitely needs to change there's absolutely no reason for us to be discharging sewerage into fresh water in the 21st century

The problem is that everything has become driven by yearly profit, and that's why essential services should be government run. And not regulation, because these companies are well known for running rings around the regulators.
I am not generally in favour of government run anything, but there some core services that should be government run. Essential suppliers. Electricity, gas, water. Just as we should also protect some of our core industries.

 

[StriderX]

I think critical infrastructure is one area where I would absolutely support the introduction of a machine doing the majority of decision making whilst a few engineers exist to apply what the government and thus the people want from it.

Too many policy areas that the government has tried to distance themselves from because it's inherently difficult to get positive outcomes out of or is simply boring so there's no headlines to gloat over, it's time this **** ended and people stopped wasting time with this ruse.

 

[Allnamestaken]

In our society, power, water and general utilities should not be something people have to get into debt over...

 

[SpellowHouse]

I think critical infrastructure is one area where I would absolutely support the introduction of a machine doing the majority of decision making whilst a few engineers exist to apply what the government and thus the people want from it.

Too many policy areas that the government has tried to distance themselves from because it's inherently difficult to get positive outcomes out of or is simply boring so there's no headlines to gloat over, it's time this **** ended and people stopped wasting time with this ruse.

I get why the government want to distance themselves, but they are tackling the issues in the wrong way. I wouldn't mind if everything was private but their inability to regulate anything causes serious problems.
It's like the nuclear power situation. They are again trying to distance themselves, but being a bunch of numpties the companies are taking them for a ride. They can't allow this to continue. These are essential for the future of the country and they are sitting there being clueless.

 

[SpellowHouse]

In our society, power, water and general utilities should not be something people have to get into debt over...

Absolutely. We should be energy self-sufficient and prices should not be tied to the world market. The government are absolutely failing the people here.

 

[danlightbulb]

TBH I think the utilities should be re-nationalised. Nothing has changed since the Conservatives sold them off, except prices have risen. I seem to remember we were promised way back then that the entire point of privatising them is that investment would increase... yet another government lie.

I'm in partial agreement with utilities being nationalised, but what you say above is false. There has been huge investment in water sector over the past 30 years, far more than pre-privatisation. There have been huge advances in quality (driven by EU regulations) in the early 2000s, and environmental spending is in the billions. If this was government run there is still a massive risk that stuff doesn't get funded because things like the NHS and education would take priority.

I do agree that excessive profit stripping has occured. Private investors need to see market comparable returns otherwise why would they put equity in?

Under a fully nationalised model we risk underfunding because of the whims of politics. I myself prefer a not for profit private model, like Welsh Water. Still need strong regulation to drive the right outcomes though, as you would under government control (who is to say whether the Government would have solved the sewage outfalls issue any better than private companies have?).

 

[jeffk]

Thames Water boss says bills need to rise by 40%

The regulator, whose approval is needed for any price rises, has pushed back on substantial bill increases.

www.bbc.co.uk

Bills have to rise to pay returns to foreign investors, Thames Water says.

I don’t see any way out of this apart from re-nationalisation.

 

[Richie]

Threats of tax payers having to cover it.

As long as, by that, they mean Council Tax payers that are served by Thames Water.... I'll be a little irked if I end up paying for it when it has nothing to do with me... I await the explanations advising how it DOES have something to do with me and how areas outwith TW service areas bear some responsibility.

 

[Werewolf]

Thames Water boss says bills need to rise by 40%

The regulator, whose approval is needed for any price rises, has pushed back on substantial bill increases.

www.bbc.co.uk

Bills have to rise to pay returns to foreign investors, Thames Water says.

I don’t see any way out of this apart from re-nationalisation.

No company or investor should ever be absolutely guaranteed a profit/yearly return ever year, at least not from something as basic and required as people's water.

Why is it that every single privatised utility/service in the UK seems to be run with the idea that the investors will always make their money first, and the country/users/consumers should be left holding the bag when there is a debt, I was under the vague understanding that if a company made a loss it was the investors who normally got stung with the bill as the flip side to them making money when it's in profit.
But then I'm probably old fashioned and really dislike the way that in recent times it feels like every single time a big company that is dealing with infrastructure milks the cash cow too hard for short term profit it's the consumers that get stuck holding the bill when the company announces "We don't know how this happened, but after years of us taking huge amounts out of the company we've not got enough left to run the company now we've got something that we need to spend money on".

As you say, re-nationalisation, if we're constantly going to be left taking all the financial risks for the utilities/services then why the hell are we letting investors and foreign governments get the profit when there is one.