Polygamy

[Raz]

Why is this frowned upon?

Saying it is illegal and morally wrong isn't a valid argument since it could be argued that our views on right and wrong are also (but not limited to) based on what is legal or not. Homosexuality is illegal in some countries but many would blame the law, not the moral position, as being wrong.

Personally, while I'm supposed to accept polygyny as a Muslim (you know who the father is...but with DNA testing maybe this Islamic legal aspect could be reformed...), but using the argument that as long as it doesn't hurt others what people do is their matter then there doesn't seem to be a problem with polygamy.

So, should society be more receptive to polygamous relationships? Do people here think it's wrong?

 

[Raz]

It may not be the ideal environment to raise children but that would be my only real objection. Basically, what consenting adults do, regardless of numbers or gender, is their business.

Well objectively that's exactly how it should be really. Personal views aside, if we use a certain argument to support X, it should also be used to support Y if conditions and factors are the same (i.e. consenting adults).

 

[Raz]

It makes your relationship less unique. When you get married you make vows to a person. Vows wouldn't make sense if you'd already made them to someone else. Outside of marriage though, if everyone knows what the deal is, it's their choice.

That's very much subjective when you consider many women are happy enough to be married to the same man. Current vows reflect monogamous relationships.

 

[Raz]

Not sure what you're getting at. Can you be more clear ?

I used homosexuality earlier. If it's between consenting adults, and no one is being harmed, then what's the problem?

Its not fair on women though is it.

A marriage is supposed to be an equal relationships but if you have 1 husband and several wives then all the power goes to the man with the wives fighting each other for his attention and essentially becoming house servants.

Nothing stopping you from having several partners but it shouldn't be endorsed in marriage / law.

That's why the thread is called polygamy not polgyny. One husband many wives, or one wife many husbands.

If they're happy with that lifestyle should the government have a say in the matter?

 

[Raz]

wow.. ask for opinions.. get them.. argue with them..
bai thread.

lol, not quite. I'm working on an essay at the moment about polygamy in Islam so having lots of thoughts going through my mind.

I know if I leave now it'll take me years to get back to this thread.

But I am interested when people disagree with something but agree with something else similar because sometimes it's a very subjective view and not objective.

 

[Raz]

There isn't one and I never said there was.

sorry, should have been clear - I didn't mean problem for you, but others who may oppose it.

 

[Raz]

Worth considering other cultures which are more accepting of polygyny but perhaps not polyandry. Personally I wouldn't consider it, even if Islam allows it, but not all cultures view marriage in the same way as Western societies, and even though love is often involved, people marry for many reasons.

I've already given the reason why I've raised this topic, but it is part of a wider discussion I feel on how far we can go with the consenting adults argument, both in Western and - more relevant to my studies - Islamic countries (some of which have put legal restrictions on polygyny giving more of a say to the first wife).

 

[Raz]

Polyamourous relationships are possible and not at all illegal but polygamy is possibly more difficult due to next of kin and inheritance laws. I am pretty sure the only places which allow polygamy it is where women's rights are already restricted and only men can marry more than one person.

This is a good summary of the legal position of polygyny in some countries http://aannaim.law.emory.edu/ifl/index2.html

 

[Raz]

It may well be, but it is also a complete pain to navigate!

definitely agree with you on that.

Though a brief look seems to suggest that my summary wasn't too out of place, Islam only allows polygyny and comes along with it reduced rights for women (like all of the Abrahamic religions there is a solid core of misogyny).

The following wiki link is somewhat easier to navigate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_polygamy

I think this quote is most telling:

Not sure I agree with that. There is no tangible reason why marriage needs to be between two people only, and I'm not sure how it violates the dignity of women. I would argue that pornography does that, or even modelling, yet many people would say the opposite.

In relation to Islam, I think societies are less accepting of polygyny than they were previously, but it obviously does happen and where everyone involved is 'happy' and it works then there isn't much to say against it.

Any way, another quote from the Wiki article

In an October 2004 op-ed for USA Today, George Washington University law professor Jonathan Turley "argued that, as a simple matter of equal treatment under law, polygamy ought to be legal. Acknowledging that underage girls are sometimes coerced into polygamous marriages, Turley replied that banning polygamy is no more a solution to child abuse than banning marriage would be a solution to spousal abuse."

 

[Raz]

Program on C4 about this right now

 

[Raz]

My views are...


...If you want Polygamy go to a country that accepts it, as its not acceptable in the UK or West.

So presumably then homosexuality should remain illegal in some countries because if you want to practise it you should just move?

Following that program I had an interesting discussion about it with my wife. She accepts that Islam allows it, but thinks that in most - but not all - cases, it's a sexually motivated decision. I asked her about her views on me getting a second wife.

Another week on the sofa and things should be back to normal.

 

[Raz]

Lets assume that 50% of the population is male and 50% female. (there or there abouts)

Please explain how a man, taking more than 1 wife can work?

On the other hand, let's assume we are (as a race) recovering from a global apocalypse, I can see how polygyny could be advantageous.

It may not work for you, but if the people involved are happy, then why should it be illegal?

Personally, I don't think I could get it to work and I've never imagined having more than one wife - not least because I've only ever wanted to be with one person, and I married her.

 

[Raz]

The way it works it the way many things work in Islamic culture.

It's a strongly class based society (cast).

The powerful Muslims would take hundreds of wives, the lower class are as good as slaves.

You think this is the way it should be?

There's no caste system in Islam. Every Muslim man can, according to the Quran and provided certain conditions are met, have up to four wives.

I should add that this thread is about polygamy in general, and not polygyny in Islam.

 

[Raz]

And every man in a capitalist society can go on to become a millionaire...

But we all know it doesn't work like that.

I thought the Muslim community was very strongly caste orientated, marrying below your caste is very seriously frowned upon? - I stand to be corrected?

Anyhow, like I said, powerful 'men' would take hundreds of wives, the poor would be 'slaves' more than they are today.

Every man, Black, white, yellow or brown is born EQUAL.

It's bad enough that wealth is so unevenly distributed. I find in utterly repugnant that a rich and powerful man would have a Harem of wives and lowly slaves to serve him.

No, there is no caste system in Islam. However, that doesn't stop people from discriminating in one form or another.

Men are also limited to four wives. Again, that's the limit for how many wives you can have according to sharia, but people are known to break laws...

There is no discrimination in Islam based on skin colour.

 

[Raz]

Don't (some) Muslim women have female babies aborted to avoid paying a dowry?

But the husband...gives money (or something of value) to the wife...so...

You don't seem to be grasping certain things here.

At the end of the day, if a woman is happy to be married to a man who is already married, and all three are happy then why is it anyone else's business?

Try answering that without bring Islam into it.