Pondering an amp upgrade

With both amps on will there be a miss match of sound across the front
What you do is set the Hi-Fi amp volume and mark the dial. Then set the AV amp volume to match. As long as the Hi-Fi amp is set to the same marked position easy time then the sound balance is perfect.

What amp might match you kit is more a case of finding an amp you like the sound of, then making sure it has enough power to match your AV amp. The power shouldn't be too difficult. 40w of British Hi-Fi power will match about 90w of Japanese AV power. Its about current, not watts.

Of you have a friendly local Hi-Fi dealer then arrange to borrow something like a Creek Evolution on sale or return. That's a good musical amp for around £750 that works nicely with the RX speakers. See if you can hear much of a difference. If yes then look for a secondhand version.
 
What you do is set the Hi-Fi amp volume and mark the dial. Then set the AV amp volume to match. As long as the Hi-Fi amp is set to the same marked position easy time then the sound balance is perfect.

What amp might match you kit is more a case of finding an amp you like the sound of, then making sure it has enough power to match your AV amp. The power shouldn't be too difficult. 40w of British Hi-Fi power will match about 90w of Japanese AV power. Its about current, not watts.

Of you have a friendly local Hi-Fi dealer then arrange to borrow something like a Creek Evolution on sale or return. That's a good musical amp for around £750 that works nicely with the RX speakers. See if you can hear much of a difference. If yes then look for a secondhand version.

thanks! as always thanks for your input!

Ok, when using a 5.1 HD source what device performs what role exactly? Does the av receiver process all the channels or does it only affect the centre, rears and fronts leaving the stereo amp to deal with fronts? if so, bearing in mind different amps produce different sounds, will there be any noticeable sound across the front row due to different devices powering the centre compared to the FL+FR?
^does this make sense?

personally i like a treble heavy sound, not really purist but hey ho, there must be a decent dealer here or near cambs. ill look into it
 
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Ok, when using a 5.1 HD source what device performs what role exactly? Does the av receiver process all the channels or does it only affect the centre, rears and fronts leaving the stereo amp to deal with fronts?

Well if you think about where the pre-outs are, the it becomes obvious how the processing is done and where the front channel signal is derived from. So, for a moment imagine that your one-box AV amp gets split in to two parts:
A pre-amp, this does all the signal switching, decoding (DD/DTS/True-HD/DTS-MA/DPL etc etc), lip sync, speaker set-ups, networking, USB playback, volume control blah blah blah.

Then a power amp All this does is take a multichannel signal from the pre-amp and the provide the muscle to drive the speakers. That's it. Nothing more. Pure & simple.​

That's all an integrated amp really is. It's a pre-amp and a power amp in one box, sharing a single power cord, and where all the pre-to-power connections are inside. Your Yam' is basically this too. Except there's a second exit for the pre-amp signals. This is the 5.1 or 7.1 pre-amp outs on the back panel. So there's one set inside and one set outside. Both sets are active simultaneously. However, if you are using an external power amp for the front channels then the Yam's front L & R speaker terminals wouldn't have any speakers connected so there's no work for the amp on those channels to do.

Okay, so if you followed the pre-amp / power amp idea then you've already worked out that all the decoding for AV sources is done before the signal reaches the pre-amp output sockets (the pre-outs). IOW, any signal coming from the pre-outs is already decoded/processed/timed/set-up exactly as if you were running the AV amp as normal. So anything connected to the pre-outs is going to receive that processed signal too. This includes a 2ch Hi-Fi amp being used as a power amp for the front channels. :D

So, when you are playing the system in AV mode, and using the Hi-Fi amp for the front channels, all it's really doing is acting like a 2ch power amp but one with the addition of a volume control that needs to be set to a specific point to be balanced with the rest of the AV amp channels. You keep one input on the 2ch Hi-Fi amp dedicated to AV use - say the AUX channel. That's pretty much it.

bearing in mind different amps produce different sounds, will there be any noticeable sound across the front row due to different devices powering the centre compared to the FL+FR?
^does this make sense?
The front L&R will have a bit more scale (better dynamics) and probably improved stereo separation. But you must also remember that the AV amp won't be working as hard. There's now no load on the front L&R channel amps, so there's more power on tap for the centre and rears. So you'll gain some scale there too.

If you went wildly OTT with the front stereo amp then that might cause some issues, sure. Say you bought some horrific disco PA amp with loads of EQ and screwed up the sound completely, then yes, you'd have a problem. But in all the times I have done this with decent Hi-Fi stereo amps then it hasn't been anything but positive. Also remember, 70% of what you hear in a movie comes from the centre channel. You also have the full ability to set the front L&R channel level where you need, so if it needs reigning in a little then you can do that.

personally i like a treble heavy sound, not really purist but hey ho, there must be a decent dealer here or near cambs. ill look into it
If you're looking for something a little more forward-sounding then I would try some silver coated speaker cable. Chord Carnival Silver Screen is a bit more toppy than plain copper cables.

Amp wise; Rotel, I would have thought. Some might suggest Cyrus. It has quite a lean fast character but can also be described as slightly clinical. Naim shares the "fast" sound but retains better musicality IMO. There is a caveat though with all these amps. It's that as the ranges and generations have evolved there are products which exhibit the house sound traits more strongly than others. What I would suggest is narrow down the choices first. Find a couple of brands that produce the sort of sound you are looking for. Then home in on specific models.

thanks! as always thanks for your input!
You are most welcome :)
 
i wont quote all that!

i do understand it now thanks. i was unsure as if the av pre outs were some sort of bypass (as in no processing at all by the av receiver). thanks for making that clear!

yes i have always liked a treble rich sound (i did wonder if my yamaha would be too treble light, and indeed i do adjust the treble up slightly, but this may also be due to room acoustics) i also wondered about getting a more treble heavy receiver as i have never tried anything else but yamaha, but again people have pointed out yamaha are best for music.

well explained, thanks for taking the time to write all that out

is balancing the amp and av reciever volume done simply by ear (when marking the volume for 5.1?)
 
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You can try by ear using the tones but you'll find the timbre of the sound changes from speaker to speaker due to room acoustics, so you might have to do quite a bit of tweaking. Alternatively a couple of minutes with a sound meter and it's done, or try the amp's auto set-up mic if it has one.
 
Lucid, if you're running a stereo pre amp and a power amp (such as an audiolab 8000s and an 8000p) can you still add an av amp into the mix BUT retain the ability to bi-amp the L and R speakers? At the moment I like bi-amping my MA GS10s with the audiolabs but I think adding an av amp will stop this from being possible.
 
Yes. As long as the AV amp has pre-outs (that's essential) then nothing changes with your stereo set up. All you do is take the AV amp's pre-out for front L&R and connect it to a spare input on the Audioab pre. The AV amp drives the centre and rear speakers from its own amp. It's exactly as I laid out above except in your case you have a pre-power Hi-Fi combo instead of an integrated amp.
 
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