Porsche

andicole0

andicole0

andicole0

Soldato
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Looks like Porsche are interested in coming back to F1 in 2021 when the engine rules change again. Does anyone know if this 2021 design (twin turbo V6) will also be Hybrid?
Also have to wonder what Honda think about a rule change they will have a massive amount by then!
Andi.
 
Goksly said:
Think I read they are going to removed one of the energy recovery methods (heat?) to simplify it... But that V6 twin turbo will stay the format.
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Would be hard for them to stay twin turbo what with them not being twin turbo now ;)

Supposedly keep the ICE(not exactly but similar), two smaller turbos, no mgu-h, mgu-k, small battery, presumably either much smaller mgu-k, say 60bhp, or 160bhp still and 10 seconds of it per lap maybe, if lucky. Sounds pretty lame really, they might be lighter, but they'll be vastly less efficient and require way more power. Supposedly higher fuel flow limit to increase power to compensate but I figure we'll be back up to 140-150kg of fuel so any engine saving goes back to fuel. Fuel saving will likely be a much bigger thing. But technology wise these engines are going to be a HUGE step backwards, which defeats the purpose of F1 being the bleeding edge. The hybrids in WEC are frankly second only to the current F1 engines but when F1 takes a huge step back WEC will have far superior and more interesting engine technology.

The whole thing is to help out Honda rather than help the sport.... the best way to help the sport right now is to push Honda out till they can prove they can make a good engine. They are basically reducing the difficulty level of F1 to help out those who can't make a good engine when the whole point of ultra elite level competition is to get only the best of the best to compete.
 
drunkenmaster said:
Would be hard for them to stay twin turbo what with them not being twin turbo now ;)

Supposedly keep the ICE(not exactly but similar), two smaller turbos, no mgu-h, mgu-k, small battery, presumably either much smaller mgu-k, say 60bhp, or 160bhp still and 10 seconds of it per lap maybe, if lucky. Sounds pretty lame really, they might be lighter, but they'll be vastly less efficient and require way more power. Supposedly higher fuel flow limit to increase power to compensate but I figure we'll be back up to 140-150kg of fuel so any engine saving goes back to fuel. Fuel saving will likely be a much bigger thing. But technology wise these engines are going to be a HUGE step backwards, which defeats the purpose of F1 being the bleeding edge. The hybrids in WEC are frankly second only to the current F1 engines but when F1 takes a huge step back WEC will have far superior and more interesting engine technology.

The whole thing is to help out Honda rather than help the sport.... the best way to help the sport right now is to push Honda out till they can prove they can make a good engine. They are basically reducing the difficulty level of F1 to help out those who can't make a good engine when the whole point of ultra elite level competition is to get only the best of the best to compete.
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I agree that it's a step backwards in technology but F1 has largely banned most road car technology for the sake of cost cutting and/or better racing. Or that's the idea anyway. There's no traction control allowed, no ABS, no stability control etc.

Regarding the change I also agree, a backwards step but the current engines are horrendously complex and Mercedes are rumoured to have spend nearly €1 billion since they started their engine program. There's no way that's sustainable and, as Honda have shown, it is extremely difficult to get working well. Even Ferrari and Renault have struggled to get them working well and still lag behind Mercedes after 5 or 6 years of development.

The new engines, while not as advanced, will be far, far cheaper. So much so that Ilmor, Cosworth, VAG/Porsche and perhaps even a few others are looking at F1 again. That can only be a good thing, right?

As above the MGU-H is being dropped as it's where most money has gone into and where most efficient and power comes from with the current engines. The new twin turbo V6's will still have an MGU-K as the last of the V8's did and is well known and well developed so will be far cheaper to implement. Having five or even six engine options will be a great leveller and might even introduce some competition of supply!
 
I think the idea of the new engine spec is to reduce cost and reduce complexity. Brawny has said he no longer sees a tie in with road cars and that f1 should go back to noisy simple engines.
Let other formulae do the high tech stuff now and let f1 be the pinnacle of motor racing again.
I hate the current engine grid penalties, let them blow up but seriously more cheaper engines would help new teams and fans enjoyment.
Motorsports does enough for technology and the environment in other places.
I suspect more fuel is used by each of the following sports every weekend - football, fishing and probably golf.
Andi.
 
Would love to see more manufacturers in F1. It was great when we had the likes of Toyota and BMW. Wish they'd come back, and also others like Audi, Porsche, Lambo etc. Not against customer teams in F1 but they never seem to be able to compete with the manufacturers, so I'd prefer more of those.
 
Backwards step. Big backwards step.

The current engines are an amazing piece of technology and going back is only going to make F1 a joke in terms of being "the pinnacle of motorsport".

I also don't get the argument that they want to keep the MGU-K because it's well known. By 2021 the MGU-H would also have been around for a while so...

I'd be willing to predict that they'd make the engines simpler to appease fans and entice manufacturers but half of those listed as "interested" will still pass up on entering due to money, so we could end up going backward in technology and having no more entries.

If Honda can't make a decent engine, stuff them. You reap your own rewards and it should always benefit those who do the best job or we'll end up going down the route of every kid gets a medal.
 
EVH said:
Backwards step. Big backwards step.

The current engines are an amazing piece of technology and going back is only going to make F1 a joke in terms of being "the pinnacle of motorsport".

I also don't get the argument that they want to keep the MGU-K because it's well known. By 2021 the MGU-H would also have been around for a while so...

I'd be willing to predict that they'd make the engines simpler to appease fans and entice manufacturers but half of those listed as "interested" will still pass up on entering due to money, so we could end up going backward in technology and having no more entries.

If Honda can't make a decent engine, stuff them. You reap your own rewards and it should always benefit those who do the best job or we'll end up going down the route of every kid gets a medal.
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While I agree the current engines are a technological marvel of efficiency with previously unheard of thermal efficiency figures they're also horrendously complex, expensive and difficult to develop. Other manufacturers see what an utter balls up Hinda have made of the formula, although at least initially McLaren's insistence on 'size zero' and Honda's subsequent poor layout decisions haven't helped and they're now in what is effectively only their second year of their current layout making them still 2-3 years behind Mercedes and Ferrari in development.

Cheaper engines may bring in other manufacturers and Porsche have indicated they're considering it. This can only be a good thing IMO. A larger choice of supply for teams means less politics and a much easier time for team managers.
 
Malt_Vinegar said:
I say allow V8/V10 and V12 units. Let the teams choose what they want to run. Just open up the formula with more options, allow different design directions, and introduce a proper spending cap.
:D
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It doesn't matter - even if they start with different configurations they'll all converge at the same point after a couple of years anyway.

It's a completely different world to 1995 (the last time we had V8s, V10s and V12s lining up together) as there is far more simulation data available.
 
Malt_Vinegar said:
I say allow V8/V10 and V12 units. Let the teams choose what they want to run. Just open up the formula with more options, allow different design directions, and introduce a proper spending cap.
:D
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In reality, as said above eventually everyone would come back to the 'right' layout, while spending millions on getting their original engine design working before abandoning it. There would also be packaging issues for other teams no doubt. It would be great, but it's not feasible.
 
Malt_Vinegar said:
It was a mostly tongue in cheek comment about the multiple engine configurations, but I think the other parts wold work. Open up the formula, and spending cap. Allow ingenuity, and free thinking.
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Its bad enough that top team budgets are £300m+ when Williams and Force India are operating on half that. Opening the buffet up won't help.
 
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