Portable servers?

[bigredshark]

If someone turned up to my work with a 2u server over their shoulder expecting to just dump it on a desk and hook it all up, they would get laughed out of the building.

and I'd tell someone to chuck it in a lab rack and patch it through to the training room...?

 

[SiD the Turtle]

Heheh lots of pros and cons here guys.

As far as location goes, customers love us being able to roll up to their office and deliver training, it's cheaper than paying the expenses for staff to travel to a training centre and it means that they can back to work with no excuses about having to travel. On the professionalism side of things I can see why turning up with a shuttle might look a bit two bit, but then I stole the idea from this Microsoft dude, who visited us a little while ago with such a server: http://blogs.technet.com/andrew/archive/2010/02/19/using-hyper-v-to-make-a-demo-sandbox.aspx.

Lastly, it's impossible to demand a net connection, some companies simply don't have the bandwidth, or are security concious and don't have outside lines.

 

[lukus001]

I simply wouldn't book stuff with them again I don't think, if you're paying for somebody to come in your likely paying far more per head for personalised training. If that's the case I want a serious professional outfit delivering the training. Serious professional outfits do not use small form factor home PCs.

Pretty much all hardware apart from a few dedicated server suppliers are interchangable with "home" use. Fancy name tags such as "work station" is nothing more than a fancy name tag.

Maybe it has ECC RAM, do you ask specifically that a training course uses hardware with ECC ~ ? Does it need ECC for a training course? No. Where is the fine line between "home" hardware and "training" hardware?

The only distinction I can think of is "server solutions" which for a training course is not even necessary.

Server solution have special requirements, such as ECC based RAM because they have to computate almost on a 24/7 dedicated basis without ever shutting down or restarting, hence why home computers do not require such an item and even then, it doesn't gurantee protection.

So where is this fine-line that says a shuttle isn't acceptable? Almost any computer or hardware manufacturer can fall within this 'home use' category, and yet, you expect your employees (end users) to use software (i.e. desktop software) on server equipment rather than desktop hardware?

A small form factor with enough power to do the job at hand, that is, to act as a server and run clients IIRC is more than acceptable for a training course. More than likely, you may be paying quite a lot for the training course but you are in no way paying such a high sum that incorporates cutting edge, modern hardware. If the course requires as such, then the trainer would have to supply such horsepower, otherwise what they use is at their sole discretion.

Bearing in mind it is software training, the hardware used to teach software bears little signifcance. What hardware are you currently using to do you work off of? One of IBM's super computers no doubt.

and I'd tell someone to chuck it in a lab rack and patch it through to the training room...?

I just did some fibre up in a university and all the comms room have nice signs saying all the equipment is audited and that you can't just go in patching anything you like in. Along with some signs saying dont plug anything in or you may overload their power supply. Sure, you'll have to get prior permission and planing but is it necessary for a training course? Most people will want to throw you in a conference room and leave you to it, not fart around with hooking things up to their equpment /racks.

Or maybe you're going to a place that has high security, such as capgemini where you need "SC" clearance, Good luck with trying to patch anything in their datacenter and hooking it up to any of their equipment let alone get an internet connection off of them.

I mean, you are saying it's accetable to ask the client for internet access /use of their own hardware, so what about if their using shuttle or "home" quality equipment? Does the trainer walk out laughing and pointing instead?

If asking for internet access /hardware is acceptable, but suppling your own "shuttle" isn't, where the difference?

The users still need their client /thin client equiment, what about that? Do they all have to use 1u servers too?

A shuttle uses one of the two main chip manufacturers, so wheres the 'technical' problem other than a bit of hate an arrogance? 99% of people are just going to say get on with it. I could go to most of the clients we work with ask them that if they got someone in to do software training and brought a shuttle in, if they would be bothered about it what do you think their reply would be? "what is a shuttle pc?" "as long as it works" or "thats the last time ill use them!!! those damn filthly swines"

nuh uh.

 

[z0mbi3]

I simply wouldn't book stuff with them again I don't think, if you're paying for somebody to come in your likely paying far more per head for personalised training. If that's the case I want a serious professional outfit delivering the training. Serious professional outfits do not use small form factor home PCs.

Really though what's the difference between turning up with a tiny pc instead of a laptop? So long as it looks the part and does the job I really can't see the harm in it.

 

[Sin_Chase]

Disk performance is going to be a huge consideration when running multiple sessions so I do not think a shuttle would be appropriate, not that I have any issue with how it "appears".

Depends on many factors though, remote solutions are awesome and all but they have their cons also. Depends on the type of training and who it is being given too. No right or wrong answer in my opinion.

 

[matthab]

Personally ive hosted a few training sessions and sat through a few. I wouldnt care what the box was powering the server providing it did its job. Maybe looking nice when sat on a desk which Shuttles do. Many shuttles use intel chipsets so are compatible with the same hardware as conventional desktops.

I cant see many excuses not to use one. The basic ones on OCuk start at £200. http://www.overclockers.co.uk/search_results.php?sortby=&groupid=&search=shuttle

 

[dangerstat]

Perhaps this might be a little controversial but what about an core i7 powered iMac packed with 16GB of RAM? Easy to transport, looks professional?

If your clients need boxes then I think the 19" all in ones from Dell are only cheap?

Don't think you'd get knocked for bringing those to our site.

 

[SiD the Turtle]

Controversial indeed, I'd be open to it but I need a machine that can run MS Hyper-V

 

[bigredshark]

Pretty much all hardware apart from a few dedicated server suppliers are interchangable with "home" use. Fancy name tags such as "work station" is nothing more than a fancy name tag.

No, cheap 'workstations' are mislabelled. Workstations are still widely available and are machines which have nothing in common with a home PC, my HP z600 or a Dell Precision is a genuine workstation.

I just did some fibre up in a university and all the comms room have nice signs saying all the equipment is audited and that you can't just go in patching anything you like in. Along with some signs saying dont plug anything in or you may overload their power supply. Sure, you'll have to get prior permission and planing but is it necessary for a training course? Most people will want to throw you in a conference room and leave you to it, not fart around with hooking things up to their equpment /racks.

Or maybe you're going to a place that has high security, such as capgemini where you need "SC" clearance, Good luck with trying to patch anything in their datacenter and hooking it up to any of their equipment let alone get an internet connection off of them.

Now go back and read it where I said lab...of course nothing gets put in a datacenter or live comms room, that would be criminally unprofessional (and the end of their job for anybody in my team) outside of a maintenance window. That's why we have a lab, to test stuff in, and that's why it's patched to the training/meeting rooms, so you can test/demo stuff without everybody involved having to sit in an equipment room.

I mean, you are saying it's accetable to ask the client for internet access /use of their own hardware, so what about if their using shuttle or "home" quality equipment? Does the trainer walk out laughing and pointing instead?

If asking for internet access /hardware is acceptable, but suppling your own "shuttle" isn't, where the difference?

No of course he doesn't, he's being paid to provide a service and not to judge the clients professionalism. If the client provides the hardware or internet access as pre-agreed as long as what they provide meets the requirements clearly stated beforehand who cares whether they use wet string.

I simply don't regard anybody who thinks home built made from parts hardware is appropriate in a business environment as professional because 99% of the time their the same people who think that pfsense is a suitable business firewall and other rubbish like that. Sorry, but if you demonstrated you might be one of those people then I'm not doing business with you again.

All of which ignores the point there's little or no advantage to a shuttle I can see, you still either need to drive to the clients or ship it in advance, in which case it's no better than virtually any mid sized tower is it?

 

[lukus001]

No, cheap 'workstations' are mislabelled. Workstations are still widely available and are machines which have nothing in common with a home PC, my HP z600 or a Dell Precision is a genuine workstation.

A work station is still a label, often used interchangably with other terms as to signify the "horsepower" of the system and maybe some other bundle hardware (such as Nvidia's quadro? graphic card vs gaming ones) since they are catered for more scientific /technical work.

Apart from that, their pretty much interchangable with home hardware, they just swap out less casual hardware with more "work" hardware with minor spec differences. You could quite easily take a workstation 'barebone' and kit it out as a "gaming system" there are not much difference within the same price zones ~ companies dont make money by redesigning everything from the ground up for all potential "labels".

A workstation is still a desktop pc, one with a differerent task to a gaming system, a office pc, a home media system and so on. Bet they still have AMD or intel inside.

Now go back and read it where I said lab...of course nothing gets put in a datacenter or live comms room, that would be criminally unprofessional (and the end of their job for anybody in my team) outside of a maintenance window. That's why we have a lab, to test stuff in, and that's why it's patched to the training/meeting rooms, so you can test/demo stuff without everybody involved having to sit in an equipment room.

You might have a lab room you can hook it up to, others may not (it isn't about you).

Any room that has a rack in it and is not a working environment (not a cab in an office) I would call a comms room. They go by various names, however if a certain company has everything in one room, lab room or not, that is the only real place you can hook it up to (other than plonking a 1u server on a desk) but then you have to ask the question, why am i bring a 1u server, designed to be put in a rack and using it as a portable, to be used on a desk solution? To me that is worse then bringing a shuttle as it says "this person doesnt know what hes doing".

No of course he doesn't, he's being paid to provide a service and not to judge the clients professionalism. If the client provides the hardware or internet access as pre-agreed as long as what they provide meets the requirements clearly stated beforehand who cares whether they use wet string.

Then if bringing your own hardware, as per your own words "meets the requirements clearly stated before hand" who cares? If it does the job its fine, whether you would like to debate the quality of the hardware or not.

New companies don't florish if you stick with name brands that spend more money on marketing and advertising than they do in R&D. Or maybe you like companies that rename their old products, possibly with new firmware and sell it as a new improve model when infact, they could have just gave you a firmware update? What a great reason to stick with "well known business" vs "authentic companies trying to run a business"

Its like slagging asda's own brand of wine against a well establish brand of wine, dispite the fact that, they actually buy it from them, rename it and sell it for less. So while it might not be the case for shuttle, certain companies easily have their products manufactured from reputable brands (oem), and you are potentially comparing two identical products based on a brand name alone, where's the logic in that?.

I simply don't regard anybody who thinks home built made from parts hardware is appropriate in a business environment as professional because 99% of the time their the same people who think that pfsense is a suitable business firewall and other rubbish like that. Sorry, but if you demonstrated you might be one of those people then I'm not doing business with you again.

I dont know what pfsense is so i cant really comment (though i did quickly search it) but you get good products and bad ones, that is in no way a reason to label "home" hardware as unacceptable.

From a glance pfsense is opensource, and yet a lot of business are running off of a flavour of linux, so where is the line you draw? pfsense May be a perticularirly bad product, but that doesnt make all opensource solutions bad for businesses. Bring that into perspective with shuttle, well they could be bad i cant comment on this either, i dont see the problem with it personally, but you cant go around labeling all "home build" or "home hardware" as unacceptable, even servers get "built" does building your own 1u server at home suddenly make it crappy/non business hardware. No.

All of which ignores the point there's little or no advantage to a shuttle I can see, you still either need to drive to the clients or ship it in advance, in which case it's no better than virtually any mid sized tower is it?

But if someone decides to use a shuttle that is in no way to discriminate that traininer for doing so. Or if they decide to build their own.

Building their own, IMO shows more technical knowledge in both software and hardware than someone buying a well know brand that probably speds more money on marketing old hardware to busiessmen that havn't got a clue.

 

[bigredshark]

Apart from that, their pretty much interchangable with home hardware, they just swap out less casual hardware with more "work" hardware with minor spec differences.

Except they aren't, my workstation would be totally unsuitable for any kind of gaming. And the spec is very different, it's server grade processors, ECC RAM and SAS disks, none of which is swappable with a home PC.

Any room that has a rack in it and is not a working environment (not a cab in an office) I would call a comms room.

Well technically that would be a room for comms gear. Which would be specced quite differently from a room designed for servers to go in.

New companies don't florish if you stick with name brands that spend more money on marketing and advertising than they do in R&D.

Actually they do because they spend their time making their business work rather than messing about with their computers. Why are be* such a big ISP in such a relatively short period? In no small part because they concentrated on support and marketing and outsourced the entire technical function to Alcatel.

I dont know what pfsense is so i cant really comment (though i did quickly search it) but you get good products and bad ones, that is in no way a reason to label "home" hardware as unacceptable.

Actually it is, there's a reason businesses don't use £70 netgear routers and ADSL lines, there's a reason they buy Dell's Latitude machines rather than cheap Inspirons and it's not to do with spec.

Building their own, IMO shows more technical knowledge in both software and hardware than someone buying a well know brand that probably speds more money on marketing old hardware to busiessmen that havn't got a clue.

If you think that there's little point arguing, if you think that every big FTSE 100 company has every single desktop, server and everything else off the shelf from HP or Dell because they're gullible and stupid and didn't think to build their own then I think you need to learn a bit more about the market.

Anyway, this isn't helping the OP. My advice is that there is virtually no way you can go wrong buying a decent off the shelf SFF desktop from HP or Dell and upgrading the RAM as necessary. *IF* you need the performance boost over a decent laptop (which is expensive but is undeniably more convenient).

 

[dangerstat]

Except they aren't, my workstation would be totally unsuitable for any kind of gaming. And the spec is very different, it's server grade processors, ECC RAM and SAS disks, none of which is swappable with a home PC.

I can understand what you're saying but I think that's a little off. *some* workstations may well use ECC RAM, SAS HDD's or Xeon processors but the truth is the that's always the case at all.

So for example in the other window I have a major UK server (can list them as they're a competitor) suppliers list of workstations open, and of the 30 odd they list only 4 have either a server grade CPU, ECC RAM or SAS disks.

Another example is the HP xw4600 which is basically a standard desktop. Normal quad core intel CPU (9400) non ECC ram and SATA hard disks and HP call it a workstation.

 

[lukus001]

Except they aren't, my workstation would be totally unsuitable for any kind of gaming. And the spec is very different, it's server grade processors, ECC RAM and SAS disks, none of which is swappable with a home PC.

I hate to point out that you just mentioned "server grade" there. So is it "server grade" or "workstation" grade. So which one is just a label?

Plenty of workstations using both "home" grade and "server grade". True, a server grade probabily isn'y the best for gaming, that said, there are pleanty of gaming systems for sell using opterons.

You throw a opteron in, sas and ecc ram what have you gained by your "workstation"?

ECC RAM, so you've got the ability to fix a 1bit of RAM error in byte/word/Dword/Qword (think its per byte), but if it's 2bits it still crashes. So, a workstation which IMO isn't a server and still has the features of desktop computing (i.e. regular shut downs) where does it benifit ECC RAM? ECC is for highly critical work on servers that have to stay up and running almost indefinatly.

Sas drives, hell, lets make a new drive type up that is 100 time better then the current best solution > What are you gaining? Are you really utilizing this to it's full potential? If you are, are you doing this regularily or once in a blue moon?

Server type CPU, what significant advantage have you just gained here, using a server type processor which is probabily running non server type task (desktop software), there isn't because the server grade was designed to meet other requirements like low power consumption, still works on the same standards x86-64bit.

Infact, one of the main reason I would say a workstation uses servergrade would be for the increase of RAM storage and thus a better ability to multi task because these station are for doing productive work, not simple office tasks.

FYI dell has a workstation using intel i5/i7s So now you're are telling me their wrong? What about their laptop "workstation" they're not using server grade CPUs infact some of them are close to matching my laptop I have on me.... The significant difference? More RAM and, ooh look, a quadro FX instead of a gaming one. Labels are cool, no?

As you have just proven, workstation is just a name, an they have the higher-end home hardware or server hardware in it... That makes it a label IMO. Does Dell make money by designing new hardware for all their labels or by throwing their server hardware into an atx case, naming it a workstation?

Why do people not use server grade hardware for "home" solutions... Could it have anything to do with the price? is it cost affective (for the consumer)?

Why is server grade hardware more expensive, Is it because their pushed to their limits to provide high perforamnce with low power? is it meeting a totally different spec that warrants a higher price? yes And why does it not get used for home hardware, because it's too expensive for the consumers and OTT?

Well technically that would be a room for comms gear. Which would be specced quite differently from a room designed for servers to go in.

Well it stands for "common equipment room". or "common telecommunication room" I'm sure there's more.

or you could be more broad and use "equipment room" but comms room sounds nicer :3 unless you want to "get technical" and slap the manual out and insure every type of room is properly named, then we'd have hundreds.

Actually they do because they spend their time making their business work rather than messing about with their computers. Why are be* such a big ISP in such a relatively short period? In no small part because they concentrated on support and marketing and outsourced the entire technical function to Alcatel.

Was refering to hardware companies like shuttle, where people dont buy into them because business are scared of "change" from what their taught is "the best and only solution for businesses " by monopolising companies.

Not general businesses.

Actually it is, there's a reason businesses don't use £70 netgear routers and ADSL lines, there's a reason they buy Dell's Latitude machines rather than cheap Inspirons and it's not to do with spec.

And what sort of business are you talking about here?

Does a small office need the same high spec a datacenter does?

Their equipment room may have the bee's knee's installed but a small office does not need to.. I'll go tell the millionaire i know that his construction and design business is flawd because in his office he has not only old hardware but off the shelf, home hardware and a "home" (well technically its a business one) BT adsl line coming in.

I'm sorry but a trainer coming into someone's business premises, which could be a small office and doing a training session, server grade hardware is not necessary. Keep servers on the servers.

Anyway, this isn't helping the OP. My advice is that there is virtually no way you can go wrong buying a decent off the shelf SFF desktop from HP or Dell and upgrading the RAM as necessary. *IF* you need the performance boost over a decent laptop (which is expensive but is undeniably more convenient).

Ill agree HP and the like are good manufacturers of computers but I wont say you will be discriminated (or should be) for using a shuttle instead or xyz so long as it does the job.

 

[dangerstat]

I hate to point out that you just mentioned "server grade" there. So is it "server grade" or "workstation" grade. So which one is just a label?

Plenty of workstations using both "home" grade and "server grade". True, a server grade probabily isn'y the best for gaming, that said, there are pleanty of gaming systems for sell using opterons.

You throw a opteron in, sas and ecc ram what have you gained by your "workstation"?

ECC RAM, so you've got the ability to fix a 1bit of RAM error in byte/word/Dword/Qword (think its per byte), but if it's 2bits it still crashes. So, a workstation which IMO isn't a server and still has the features of desktop computing (i.e. regular shut downs) where does it benifit ECC RAM? ECC is for highly critical work on servers that have to stay up and running almost indefinatly.

Sas drives, hell, lets make a new drive type up that is 100 time better then the current best solution > What are you gaining? Are you really utilizing this to it's full potential? If you are, are you doing this regularily or once in a blue moon?

Server type CPU, what significant advantage have you just gained here, using a server type processor which is probabily running non server type task (desktop software), there isn't because the server grade was designed to meet other requirements like low power consumption, still works on the same standards x86-64bit.

Infact, one of the main reason I would say a workstation uses servergrade would be for the increase of RAM storage and thus a better ability to multi task because these station are for doing productive work, not simple office tasks.

FYI dell has a workstation using intel i5/i7s So now you're are telling me their wrong? What about their laptop "workstation" they're not using server grade CPUs infact some of them are close to matching my laptop I have on me.... The significant difference? More RAM and, ooh look, a quadro FX instead of a gaming one. Labels are cool, no?

As you have just proven, workstation is just a name, an they have the higher-end home hardware or server hardware in it... That makes it a label IMO. Does Dell make money by designing new hardware for all their labels or by throwing their server hardware into an atx case, naming it a workstation?

Sorry to burst your bubble there fella but I was agreeing with you

I wouldn't however agree with your comments on ECC RAM. For a workstation in the majority of numerical fields it's essential not an advantage. If your running a simulation that requires as near to damn it precision taking up weeks of computing time, experiencing an error due to some sort of corruption is hugely important. And it's the reason HPC manufacturers won't touch non ECC memory.

The reality is that the workstation name goes back at least 10 years or more to describe a computer that is designed to perform consistently well, highlighting stability and performance. Workstations like the Sun Ultra series and IBM's UNIX workstations where rock solid, excellent performers and expensive and it's those three terms that define a workstation, nothing else.

 

[lukus001]

Hi Dangerstat, I wasn't dissagreeing with you (i don't think so anyway?)

A lot of workstation (not all, of course) get marketed for 3D /CAD based solutions quite a lot. Scientific and other fields are also included but it's a very loose term just as "server" isn't specific to the task.

I have a server in a datacenter in france, I don't think it has ECC and neither does it need it, im not doing large number crunching on RAM disks with no means of backing up. it's a need by need basis.

I'm not saying ECC is not necessary, but keeping within the scope of the OP i.e. a server that will be transported and used to host a training session, almost any hardware is acceptable for this task and ECC is just redundant features.

I would agree that a workstation is supposed to be a name that people look to for performance and reliablilty and I'm sure that has been the case for many years. My argument is, just because a workstation comes with ECC ram doesn't mean it needs it. If your task requires it then that is a necessity and the one purchasing it should know this. Most workstation have ECC simply because they are using their server spec motherboards as it maximises their profits.

A workstation to me is still just a name. The two distinction I can see with computing hardware is desktop and server based solutions. Workstations would more commonly use server spec hardware because they generally have high specs and need more reliable componets but the price tag reflects this but lower end workstation use the higher-end desktop hardware...

Its an overlap between the two, so which one you choose depends on one's perticular needs, thefore even a lower end desktop solution is acceptable if it meets the needs. A relaible desktop solution is still a reliable desktop solution.

Everyone that i have ever known with a workstation has it for CAD and ECC for them is therefore not needed. Now that motherboards are supporting 16B of RAM on desktop solutions almost as standard, unless you are utilinsg more than this for CAD I see little point in shilling out money on server spec hardware. Reliable desktop is still reliable. There are special CAD areas (medical) which is where the workstations shine but they are generally using special software too which need specific hardware requirements.

Dell sells a workstation using an i5/i7, which isnt one of intel's server class processors. The difference here is the name tag "workstation" that signifies a level of quality and higher spec but does not mean it can't branch of to "home" hardware.

Server hardware would be in home PCs if it wasn't for the price tag associated with them, thats no reason to nock reliable home hardware.

think wikipedia sums it up nicely though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workstation