Power wars, your thoughts?

Stonedofmoo: Can I ask if you have ever driven a modern, 500bhp+ RWD car? I have driven several cars with the power outputs of which you speak and I can say with certainty, that none of them felt overpowered in any way. Some have been light, some have been heavy. If anything, the heavy cars put their power down more effectively due to the increase of mechnical grip.
 
Rilot said:
Stonedofmoo: Can I ask if you have ever driven a modern, 500bhp+ RWD car? I have driven several cars with the power outputs of which you speak and I can say with certainty, that none of them felt overpowered in any way. Some have been light, some have been heavy. If anything, the heavy cars put their power down more effectively due to the increase of mechnical grip.
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No and i'm not really commenting on how they feel, I bet they are all awesome. It's just simply put RWD cannot handle the power 400bhp+ cars put down from a standing start without electronically reigning in that power. To me that seems pointless.

If you turn off electronic driver aid like traction control on a heavy saloon and floor it you will wheel spin. I believe if i'm not mistaken this was well prooven on top gear not so long back. Of course on the move is different

F1 cars also suffer from wheelspin, they too have traction control. It's for this reason they can switch it off and perform burn outs and donuts for audiences at fun days.

My manager has a new Carrera S. That only has 355bhp , but even that is able effortlessly spin it's wheels despite large, wide tyres and the engine sitting right over the wheels themselves aiding in mechanical traction
 
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Stonedofmoo said:
RWD cannot handle the power 400bhp+ cars put down from a standing start without electronically reigning in that power.
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Now we get to the crux.

I absolutely agree with this statement. But big power is so much more than screaming 0-60 times though. However, this is more to do with the gearing than the amount of power the engine produces.
A 100bhp car that is geared for 20mph in first will spin it's wheels more than a 500bhp car that is geared for 80mph in first.
 
I guess. But being the speed limit is 70mph and these cars will never see any track action - 0-60 times are important to make the most of the power you just bought ;)
 
Since becoming a true RWD convert I have come to this conclusion:

4WD and traction control are for girls and nancy boys. My traction control = my right foot ;)

Anyway as for the original point, I do agree with you to some extent Mr Sukabe. I especially think it has gone a bit silly WRT front wheel drive cars. Cars are heavier nowadays anyway due to safety features etc, and the seemingly unconrollable need for manufactureres to make every generation of a car bigger. More weight = the car has to have more power for similar performance to the previous generation. Unfortunately this means having to install traction control and other 'aids' to reign in the ever increasing power.

I would be all for cutting all the fat and having lighter, more nimble cars that wouldn't need as much power for similar performance. Unfortunately I don't think it's going to happen, cars will keep getting bigger, heavier and more powerfull, with no real gains in performance apart from top speed.
 
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Even so, you'd have to agree that an F1 analagy is poor in this argument, from what i can tell we are talking about road legal production cars. F1 cars have the aerodynamics, STUPID tyres, plus much less weight, plus some gold plated traction control and cost a hell of a lot more than any production car would and are built for a different purpose.

I think the argument is not whether RWD can deal with the power but whether it can be handled adequately for the purpose.

Plus everyone knows that FWD = WIN :p :D
 
Gaijin said:
Plus everyone knows that FWD = WIN :p :D
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As clearly voted for by the following performance cars:
Every car from the following manufacturers: Ferrari, Lambo, Maserati, Porsche, Aston, Jag, BMW.
and the following invidual incars: Elise, most Mercedes, S2000, 200SX, AE86, Supra, Skyline

etc etc etc.
 
Stonedofmoo said:
No and i'm not really commenting on how they feel, I bet they are all awesome. It's just simply put RWD cannot handle the power 400bhp+ cars put down from a standing start without electronically reigning in that power. To me that seems pointless.

If you turn off electronic driver aid like traction control on a heavy saloon and floor it you will wheel spin. I believe if i'm not mistaken this was well prooven on top gear not so long back. Of course on the move is different

F1 cars also suffer from wheelspin, they too have traction control. It's for this reason they can switch it off and perform burn outs and donuts for audiences at fun days.

My manager has a new Carrera S. That only has 355bhp , but even that is able effortlessly spin it's wheels despite large, wide tyres and the engine sitting right over the wheels themselves aiding in mechanical traction
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Yeah I agree with you mate, my mates M5 does struggle with grip.

As you say Top Gear summed it up nicely when Clarkson had the AMG CL65 Merc, turned off the traction control and it sat there wheelspinning because there was too much torque for 2 wheels to deal with.
 
Mr_Sukebe said:
As clearly voted for by the following performance cars:
Every car from the following manufacturers: Ferrari, Lambo, Maserati, Porsche, Aston, Jag, BMW.
and the following invidual incars: Elise, most Mercedes, S2000, 200SX, AE86, Supra, Skyline

etc etc etc.
Click to expand...

Thank you for reminding me. I forgot i was joking.
 
Bear said:
It reminds me of when I was running in my old 125 bike. Because you couldnt go very fast, I used to try and not lose any momentum and carry the same speed through all corners, roundabouts etc. so you didnt have to accelerate up to speed again. No speeding involved but was a great laugh.
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reminds me of the good old RS125 days! small ammount of speeding involved, but never had so much fun on a road at relatively low speeds. tempted to buy annother RS125! Probly end up with a track day bike tho me thinks
 
Usually on my journeys I don't spend my time screening at max power from a standstill. Usually I am moving and when moving you can put your foot down and grip, which is where these cars excel, in gear acceleration for overtaking. You are meant to ease off the line and then floor it when you can achieve some grip. That doesn't make a high powered car pointless it just means you have to manage the power differently.

"As you say Top Gear summed it up nicely when Clarkson had the AMG CL65 Merc, turned off the traction control and it sat there wheelspinning because there was too much torque for 2 wheels to deal with."

That doesn't make that car useless, as you can put the power down when moving, which is what clarkson went on to say when he showed its staggering overtaking potential (to the theme tune of robocop if I remember correctly)

Not really sure why everyone has concentrated on moving from a standstill so much in this thread...
 
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Cos legally you only have 0-70mph to play with and considering in the cars mentioned thats about 6 seconds of acceleration you want to make the best of it! ;)
 
DreXeL said:
4WD and traction control are for girls and nancy boys. My traction control = my right foot ;)
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ROFL, I say that all the time to the blokes at work. FWD cars for kids, 4WD cars for girls and RWD for men ;) :D
 
My thoughts, I'm largely indifferent to the power struggles as most of the cars which are not outright sports cars don't appeal to me.

400bhp+ in a RWD format is not too much power, you can never have enough power unless it compromises the dynamics of the car. Sure that amount of power unleashed from a standing start will spin the wheels, but so will a nissan micra if you really try.

The 600+bhp Porsche GT2s don't have any problems with getting the power down if the chassis, suspension and wheels are sorted.
 
Simon said:
For grip you need weight too though. This is why the Rover 220s are good as they have a massive cast iron lump over the front wheels, Light engine fwd cars don't grip very well as the acceleration ***** the weight 'easier'.
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lol mate might want to edit that typo :P

I agree, it is getting a bit ridiculous. A friend not so long ago test drove na Evo something or other, said it was absolutely awesome but as it was so good you had to scare yourself to really get anything out of it, and he valued his license too much for that.

I can drive the other halfs micra and have a whale of a time (as I did with my old 957cc fiesta), floor it everywhere and still have no chance of breaking the limit, just a pity the chassis isn't better.

Another of my big pet hates is the trend to stick huge wheels on cars that really don't need them. 17 inch wheels on a 150bhp Fiesta, ok it might do something for the handling but I bet it could be a better drive if properly setup for 16s or even 15s.
 
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